Witch craft and Misogyny

[Hoppinggreen]

DD is doing an A level project on Witch craft and the witch trials of the 1600s
she wants to focus on misogyny as a key driver behind what happened and I was wondering if anyone could point her in the direction of some resources?
she has downloaded Andrea Dworkins book on Hate, any other ideas?
Thank you

Tamzo85- Do you think the number of middle aged or elderly women then mirrors the number of middle aged or elderly now are murderers or pedophiles?

@flygirl1983

I think the number of mentally Ill women in those days numbers or exceeds (given they were totally untreated and there was no hospitalisation available) that of today proportionately. This is a large portion of who was tried - those who were feared as unstable (which I have written about in attempt to see it through the villagers eyes). I also think the number of unstable women who may have killed their own baby is proportionally similar or increased (again no help available).

And because of the emphasis on women having children and the amount of those who lost children young or in childbirth, I think (and it is recorded) that there was some rather strange beahviour of mentally unwell women who this applied to, as in showing an overt interest in others children l, or starting to see them as their own etc. delusions like that borne of illness and grief.

The pedophiles and such who were tried as witches were usually the mentally unwell men who engaged in such things.

Neither the persecution of a smaller number of men or the fact that women denounced other women negates the fact that witchcraft was considered a gendered crime or that it was driven by misogyny.

If you read the Malleus Maleficarum (one of the essential texts used by witchfinders) you’ll see that it lists why women are so prone to witchcraft; their weaker nature, insatiable carnality and lack of rational thought make them susceptible to the devil.

FGM is practised by women on women but it is underpinned by misogynistic ideas.

Elliot Rodger killed men on his way to the sorority. His acts were still underpinned by a misogynistic view of women.

Misogyny is not simply men against women.

@RachelshouldvegonetoParis

Your too deep in your own modern feminist ideology to get an unbiased view of that time. You’ve already pre judged it.

How do you respond to the blatant misogyny in the Malleus Mallificorum?

OP I actually do think there was a misogynistic component to witch trials even If it's only the lasting impression that witch = old hag = woman. However, I agree with PPs that entering the research with a preconceived notion is not a good way to study, unless she's looking to disprove it - ie test it. Any argument she makes in the end will be far stronger if she does this.

As an idea, areas to look at could be "to what extent was witchcraft misogynistic" or "Were accusations of witchcraft misogynistic" or "is there evidence that witchcraft was not a misogynistic accusation" etc. Depending on her findings she may still conclude that it was 100% misogynistic. Learning that research can be manipulated (even inadvertently) to support your view really isn't a good habit to get into, despite it being a rather popular method of "research" right now.

Malleus Malificarem. Sorry

I agree with this. But as was mentioned earlier, this may be beyond the level of historical engagement that OP's DD is at at this point.

@flygirl1983

Why would looking at history without a very obvious ideological inclination in mind be harder than not?

Its perfectly reasonable to look at history through a feminist lens, it's not possible to be objective about history.

Victims were 80-90% female so of course its worth examining from a feminist perspective. The history of who was labelled mentally ill is another pertinent topic for feminists. Taking the word of Kramer in MM at face value is not very intellectually curious tbh.

You can look at any topic with a feminist analysis, just like any other academic theory, like queer theory or constructionism or post-structuralism. It's just that women are told we're weirdly obsessed when we take a feminist view, I wonder why that is... 🤔

One of the podcasts I listen to had an episode on the witch trials in Europe - Alsace, I think, where there were very good records kept. It was really interesting in itself, and might give her ideas on where else to go for her research.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07nx05j

@SunriseMoon

It may not be possible to be totally objective - but it’s certainly possibly to be completely un objective by design, which is often what taking any kind of ideological “lens” into history does - as you now have to fit complicated events into your “framework”. People that do this usually think they are being quite clever when in fact their thoughts resemble those of 9th graders doing a project and trying to cater to what they think the teacher wants, regardless of the truth.

The big problem is that when you continually look at things through only one lens, whether feminist or other - it is usually because you are deep into that ideology and so you get further and further from being capable of even attempting objectivity.

Nobody is totally unobjective, but people who don’t try to fit history into their own favourite “ism” are more objective than those who do.

This isn’t what DD is doing at all - she is researching whether/to what extent Misogyny was a key factor
Thank you for your input though

Thank you
this is exactly what she is doing, researching the misogynistic components of the Witch Trials. I am sure she will present a balanced view based on the resources she reads and listens to.

One of the interesting things to think about (I think) is how many accused people were in some way ‘outsiders’ to their communities - and whether it was easier for a woman to be deemed an outsider at that time, perhaps because of the narrow social norms women were expected to conform
to. So the accusation was almost a secondary result of underlying misogyny?

I’m only speculating on this, btw! But I think it’s an interesting question.

Allows Huxley's novel The Fevils of Loudon is a fascinating account of the accusation and trial of a priest in early 17th century France. It is based on original documents, and really is about mass hysteria. The appendix on the terrifying power of crowd mentality is particularly striking.

Bah! 'Devils'

Broadcast details foe this programme
www.bbc.com/mediacentre/proginfo/2022/21/lucy-worsley-investigates

The ever excellent Mary Beard
www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/09/mary-beard-witch-tweets-reflect-society-fear-older-women

The article also has a link to books about the subject

What's interesting in relation to this is that witch trials tended to be most problematic in places where the rule of law was weak, so that mass hyteria, mobs, and personal vandettas could come to the fore. People accused were generally much worse off if they were tried by local authorities rather than the church, where witchcraft was still a somewhat controversial idea and the person in charge was much more likely to be educated.

And interestingly there was an actual increase in interest in magic in the early modern period, which didn't likely affect regular poeple much but may well have affected the thinking of some of those in charge.

I listened to this ages ago but just in case it’s useful this episode of Gone Medieval was interesting

Witchcraft has a plethora of negative connotations attached to it. Being accused and found guilty of this in the Middle Ages could be fatal, but could it also be used as a political tool that even members of the royal family could not avoid? Matt is joined by author and Historian Gemma Hollman to explore the development of the idea of witchcraft, and its use against women.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/gone-medieval/id1564113746?i=1000535826199

@Spudlet

I think the other things about this is that male outsiders (mental issues or whatever) where more likely and less fearful about just moving on and living what was a Middle Ages hobo life. Whereas the road tended to be dangerous for their female counterparts so they stayed in their village even when dangerous.

I would suggest she googles and contacts Dr Durrant through University of South Wales - he was my lecturer in my third year of uni, his module named Witchcraft and Debauchery was fantastic.

But there's been a lot of good books suggested already. I'm away from home or I'd check the ones I've still got.

@MangyInseam

The other thing is nearly half of the English witch trials came in the civil war in an area which as you say was virtually devoid of law and order from the outside. And they were all done under the direction (and personally) of one guy, Matthew Hopkins, so again rather than a cultural phenomenon - when it comes to English witch trials half of them are a result of one man’s particular personality.

I guess people today would consider him a monster and he was controversial at the time, but to many he was to witches what Sherlock Holmes was to crime, but in real life.

I disagree with you on points. But I appreciate your knowledge and passion for the subject.