Police

[Saltyquiche]

With so much ingrained corruption, inaction and misogyny, the police police force regularly fail victims of rape, child abuse, coercion and domestic abuse. I do wonder if wholly female staffed specialist police units would be the way forward? Reducing the chance of opportunistic officers committing offences or officers minimising, preventing justice.

My experience is that misogyny has been internalised by some female officers so I don’t think this is the answer. Better vetting of new officers, protection of whistle blowers and a willingness to sack existing officers who have misogynistic/sexist attitudes would be the way forward.

Good points! I think you’re right too, recruitment,disciplineries, background checks and processes need tightening

@Michaelmonstera

My experience is that misogyny has been internalised by some female officers so I don’t think this is the answer. Better vetting of new officers, protection of whistle blowers and a willingness to sack existing officers who have misogynistic/sexist attitudes would be the way forward.

This is my experience too - a friend was dating a police officer a while back, and I was stunned when she (the officer) started talking about women 'crying rape', as if it was more common than rape.

Police officers who whistle blow may be punished by their colleagues - one example is a female officer who complained about sexual harassment from a fellow officer was left stranded when she requested backup. Despite the fact that she could’ve been killed, there was no effective investigation as to why colleagues did not attend in response to her call.

I was stunned when she (the officer) started talking about women 'crying rape', as if it was more common than rape

I have a relative who works for the police and she's like this as well. Also refused to believe rapists said they were trans to get into female prisons.

I’m not convinced on this. I’m a senior detective and work in child protection. I have a mixed team but two are male and their investigations are outstanding. They’re thorough, skilled detectives.

We had a visit from a chief officer last week who was asking me about the overall poor conviction rate for rape. I got my staffing chart out! As much as many forces are saying violence against women and girls is a priority the reality on the ground is we are still wildly understaffed and because of the effects of ten years of not recruiting we now have a massive experience gap with young inexperienced detectives dealing with cases of rape and serious sexual assault.

Misogyny is still an issue. But a bigger issue is that investigating RASSO crime requires an adequate amount of skilled and trained investigators with the time and equipment to do their jobs properly and that’s not the case. I would love to be able to spend more time with my new detectives working on their interview skills (this for me is key in these cases where there is often little or no forensic evidence) but I just don’t have time in my day.

I think for me the misogyny is at the senior levels in the police. The chief officers who are telling us that it’s a priority but they don’t put any money into it. If it was treated on a par with things like drugs or organised crime (both in the police and CPS) I think we would honestly see different results

Ponkey, that’s very informative and interesting to know an inside view. So it sounds like gaps need to be plugged with more staff, investment in training staff up and proper funding. Do you think there’s anyone at the top who has the insight and understanding to sort issues out?

@HairyMuttttt I also work for the police and echo everything that @Ponkyandthebrain said.

The funding issue starts at central government. The Tories seem to hate the police and funding has been slashed brutally. Boris’ big headliner of recruiting more police as you might expect, is not solving anything:

Policing isn’t an attractive career for many so recruiting is tough - one of our local forces has just had to cancel 2 intakes because they don’t have enough to fill it

The money to recruit more comes with strings - we have to recruit the set number and they must ALL pass the 3 year’s training. If this isn’t achieved the force don’t get the money.

Govt provided funds to pay x number of new recruits. They did not provide the corresponding funds to support this influx - ie Real estate, trainers, more uniforms, more vehicles etc etc. so the police are squeezing it through as best they can

At the same time the police have been forced into changing the qualification and training route in - from a 2 year diploma done on the job, to a 3 year degree done more like nursing/paramedics. Again with little infrastructure in force to support this.

Due to workloads and constant criticism, becoming a detective is not a popular route any longer. Counterterrorism and Gun/Gang crime are much more headline grabbing, and get far, far better funding, and their work is covert so they don’t run the risk of malicious complaints (yes, there are some terrible cops, but there are a lot of good ones, you would not believe the absolute fictions that are alleged and disproved in seconds due to police systems and how rigorous the tracking is).

Where you can post a response cop where you need to, you can’t just move one into a detective role. There are courses, exams and a portfolio to complete to build in the enhanced skills - you can’t force someone to pass!

You would also be shocked at how warring partners use the police as a weapon in marital breakups, and yes, there are women out there who do cry rape, and make it so hard for those genuine cases.

It’s simplistic saying the police fail victims - when it is one word against another and it comes down to proving there was no consent (99% of cases). The law and CPS are very, very strict. The CPS refuse charge where they perceive that at here is not enough evidence to be sure that a jury would convict. Remember, beyond reasonable doubt. She says he raped her. He says she consented and is just bitter etc etc. No one contests sex took place, just whether it was consensual. Not all rapes leave visible bruising.

It’s just way more complex than ‘bad cops failing rape victims’.

@HairyMuttttt

Ponkey, that’s very informative and interesting to know an inside view. So it sounds like gaps need to be plugged with more staff, investment in training staff up and proper funding. Do you think there’s anyone at the top who has the insight and understanding to sort issues out?

Sorry for the slow response my partner is working today and I’ve been wrangling a teething toddler all day.

It sounds callous to say they don’t care enough but I think too many of the typical generation of men who now lead police forces still see domestic abuse (which rape overwhelmingly falls into) as womens issues. Even where you have the rare female leaders coming through at that rank I think they’re so few and far between that they also had their career surrounded by that view and are too much a part of it.

Policing loves targets. We like to be able to quantify what we have done. We have seized X many guns and X many kilos of drugs. You could pour loads of money into rape and not improve the prosecution rate much, it’s difficult to know what exactly might work as there’s no one clear problem, there’s lots of them. They’re tricky to solve and you won’t ever get the same bang for your buck as you do with drugs.

On another point I hate the term cry rape. I’ve dealt with a few people in my career who have definitely lied about a rape (not many, it is a vanishingly small minority) and each and every one of them have had such complex mental health issues and trauma that there would be absolutely zero public interest in prosecuting them. Most rapes are just hard to prove. They happen often in domestic abuse situations where there is a background of coercive and controlling behaviour and they don’t need to beat and threaten the victim because they have broken them down emotionally and can pretty well do as they like. But finding evidence of this that stands up to the criminal justice system is difficult, though not impossible.

Lastly the criminal justice system is appallingly antiquated. If you think rape myths are prevalent in the police wait until you get a victim in front of your average daily mail reading, woman hating jury. I don’t know what the answer is to this one really.

Well this is very interesting but very depressing. So was Germaine Greer right when she said we should make rape a much lesser crime with lower levels of proof required for a conviction so we get more rapists into court?

I do think the police, CPS and courts could all do better. They have to be forced and dragged and shamed into it. Many of the individuals on the ground in the job are doing their level best and getting some good prosecutions home in spite of the challenges. But the organisations and leadership are crap and need to be held to account by the public. Posts like this give me a bit of faith that people are increasingly doing that

Ponkyandthebrain

Can I just ask what proportion of victims do you have that simply don't want to pursue the matter to court? They just don't want to re-live what happened again in-front of a court?

I'm a SOIT in my force and find this is quite a common occurrence. We will do all we can in the initial contact - support services, seize everything we can, crime scene, arrest the suspect, ABE interview etc etc. But that's as far as the victim wants it to go. They are happy they have been taken seriously and had the support, but want to draw a line under it and want to try and move forward with their lives as best they can. They are not bothered what happens to the suspect, they want to put themselves first which i can understand.

This is then "another rape which doesn't get a conviction" and as you say not very good for police targets.

Call me misguided but I don't think female only would solve anything. Having over come major obstacles just to get where they are in a male dominated position, most probably only remain there provided they keep their mouths shut and provide support to their colleagues whatever they have done. It's too risky career wise to do much else.

To be honest, most of our specialist units are mostly female officers - or more or less 50/50.

@Felix125

Ponkyandthebrain

Can I just ask what proportion of victims do you have that simply don't want to pursue the matter to court? They just don't want to re-live what happened again in-front of a court?

I'm a SOIT in my force and find this is quite a common occurrence. We will do all we can in the initial contact - support services, seize everything we can, crime scene, arrest the suspect, ABE interview etc etc. But that's as far as the victim wants it to go. They are happy they have been taken seriously and had the support, but want to draw a line under it and want to try and move forward with their lives as best they can. They are not bothered what happens to the suspect, they want to put themselves first which i can understand.

This is then "another rape which doesn't get a conviction" and as you say not very good for police targets.

Yes very much so and I have to say I get it. Why would you want to relive that? Why would you want to re live it with a barrister who is going to repeatedly call you a liar? I have to say pre recorded cross examination is a massive help. Gets it out of the way early especially with so many trial delays now. Have they rolled that out to you yet? We were part of a trial so have had it for a few years

@Michaelmonstera

Police officers who whistle blow may be punished by their colleagues - one example is a female officer who complained about sexual harassment from a fellow officer was left stranded when she requested backup. Despite the fact that she could’ve been killed, there was no effective investigation as to why colleagues did not attend in response to her call.

I remember this. Just awful. What chance have we got when police treat their colleagues like this?

I think additionally some more stringent measures about what you can say to victims of rape in cross examination would help. They deliberately play into rape myths and get away with it so they might as well. I had a victim told he must have wanted it last week. He was 8 when he was raped.

To be honest the main thing to whistle blow (in my experience) about is the fact there just isn’t enough investment (both financial but also investing in policy to improve practices) in violence against women compared with say organised crime and we keep coming up against unfair practices in the criminal justice system. Lots of us are doing our best with what we’ve got and will openly and honestly discuss it with anyone who will listen. We have a VAWG project ongoing in our force at the minute and I hope it will conclude the same thing. I welcome things like this. The more the public show it is a priority the more (hopefully) our leadership will listen. I think policing very much reflects society. If society doesn’t value women’s lives and experiences then the police don’t prioritise it.

I can’t comment on the sexual harassment case. That’s vile. We have a similar case ongoing in our force at the minute and it’s shameful. I think sadly policing will always attract some men who see at as an opportunity to exercise power.

Ponkyandthebrain

No, the pre-trial cross examinations have not reached us yet.

CPS & CJU up here tend to be transfixed with redactions. Wanting us to redact everything they can think of - any PPN that's ever been taken, any crime report, any old custody record, all BWV - not realising that this could take months to do and officers not given any time to do it.

I digress a little and before i go into 'full moan mode' - it is another example of the system not putting victims first

It is supposed to be rolled out nationally but not sure when then. It really helps victims.

Yes same here with redactions. We really rolled over on that one. It’s killing us. Things that don’t even meet the disclosure test so will never see the light of day. One of the things we are trialling as part of the VAWG project in our force is putting civilian case file builders in our vulnerable persons unit (Domestic abuse and child protection work so lots of RASSO stuff). This is helping enormously because the redacting/file building is their day job and they’re great at it. They’re getting through six files a day between two of them at the minute it’s amazing. All domestic abuse cases pretty much go to CPS so we made a case that we needed support with it. Do you think that would be considered where you are?

It would be a really good idea - and one of those ones where "I can't believe we don't do that"

But, good ideas like that just don't get implemented - the management team have never worked on the 'front line' for years and as such have no idea what is needed in things such as case files. To them, 'redactions' is just a word - a thing that needs doing and so the OIC needs to manage their time to do it and should only take 5 minutes to do.

Its the same with PPN's - the risk assessment questions are important to ask and write down the responses from the victim. It might take 2 hours or so to do it properly - but the management team kind of assume its just a 2 minute job as they should be all yes/no answers.

We do have a case file management unit - kind of a go-between between the police and the courts for all files - and they do tend to do most of the unused materials - but now they are passing more and more stuff back down the line for the OIC to complete.

And as an OIC and front line response officer - we tend to somehow manage - working through your meal breaks, working way past your finishing time, taking work home with you, sneakily putting a case file together when your supposed to be on a scene guard. We kind of make it work, but ultimately there is a limit to how much we can do and the only people who lose out is the victims.

Hopefully not derailing, here, but: can I ask - many, many women are raising safeguarding concerns about 'The Family Sex Show', which aims to show nudity and teach children from age 5 about various sexual practises.

Is there specific law on exposing children of that age to this kind of thing (inappropriate nudity and sexualised content that is not age appropriate)? How does one report safeguarding concerns in this kind of context? Is there anyone in particular we could/should report concerns to? There have been a few threads on it, here's one:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4530725-A-Detailed-Look-At-The-Family-Sex-Show

Even if not discussing this one particular show, is there a central body that deals with child safeguarding issues, is it just the NSPCC or are there others?

Many thanks.

Never really heard of the show and certainly never watched it.

It will be down to the broadcasting rules & ethics for the TV channel i suppose. Whether it has breached any rules of public decency.

I don't know how shows like naked attraction ever get broadcast either to be honest.

It's a live stage show, Felix, which is why I've found it hard to find any legislation, maybe. The rules on broadcasting/films etc seem to be easier to find.

There'll be similar legislation with live performances/shows.

There'll be some sort of disclaimer at the start of the show I guess. And i assume that children aged 5 will have to be accompanied by a parent/guardian with parental responsibility.

I might be wrong, but there was some show called 'puppetry of the penis' which was basically naked men on stage 'doing things' shall we say. This was promoted on a few daytime shows at the time and i'm sure that wasn't age restricted either - so you could take children to that.