Small but telling issues with schools?

[Triffid1]

DS will be going to a local co-educational school when he moves to high school in September. One of the things we liked about the school was the sense that they were pretty good on diversity generally and that they are clearly working on embedding issues around race, diversity, women etc into the curriculum and culture.

But we've just received the transition booklet. On the very first page (you open the booklet and it's the first real page - on the inside cover is an advert for the PTA shop) is "Welcome from the head boy". Then you turn the page, and suddenly it's "welcome from the head girl."

It's such a small thing but yet again, the boy goes first and the way it's positioned, it just subtly suggests HIS is the more important message.

Current primary school has football club. For a while, the girls did it at school (inferior facilities, with a non-professional coach) while the boys were taken to the official sports ground. This changed - I believe due to girl parents complaining.

Every single time DD or one of her friends complain about a boy hitting them/teasing them etc, it's always "he said, she said" and surprise surprise, the boy never gets a punishment as there's no way to know that the boy did it. So right from the off, girls are taught that they will not be believed when they make an accusation unless they bloody have it on video or similar.

I will be very interested over the next however many years to see how deep this equality focus at the high school really goes. What other examples should I be looking out for? I know when I was at school (admittedly, a LONG time ago), there was a default assumption that school leaders would be the boys. Always. Annoyed me then, annoys me now. Anything else?

Also, note I didn't put this in AIBU "AIBU to be annoyed at how already the subtle suggestion that boys are more important is starting and DS hasn't even started high school?" because I know that the vast vast bulk of posters will think I'm over sensitive and hysterical. sigh.

What's the uniform like? Can girls wear trousers? There are loads of examples like this in adult life too (go and buy a car and see whether you're approacher or the man you're with, who knows naff all about cars). Mention it to them - could they have put 2 coulmns in and given them half each, for example?

If you go and look at the school, what work is on display?

The uniform is one I'm pleased about all things considered - girls can wear trousers, yes. Also, the skirt requirement (if wearing) is not unreasonable - a couple of inches above the knee or something. Hair is specifically not gendered - so long hair must be tied back, short cuts cannot show scalp and no patterns. But nothing about boys/girls. Ditto make up and jewellery are just single stud earring in each ear and light make up and simple watch.

I didn't actually notice whose work is being displayed, that's a good question.

Amusingly, just referenced Invisible Woman on another thread, remembered to go track down this week's newsletter and.... she's' writing about the fact that schools teach literature with a focus on male authors. here

Great minds....

If you have gender at the forefront of your mind, then you're going to project that and assume that every decision made is a decision made to put men first. You are reading something into this which simply isn't there.

The evidence for this is the fact that the reverse situation is also considered to be sexist to the benefit of men. "Ladies first" is regarded as chivalrous behaviour, which harms women.

And for some strange reason, I never hear anyone taking issue with women being first in "Ladies and Gentlemen..."

@greasyshoes

If you have gender at the forefront of your mind, then you're going to project that and assume that every decision made is a decision made to put men first. You are reading something into this which simply isn't there.

The evidence for this is the fact that the reverse situation is also considered to be sexist to the benefit of men. "Ladies first" is regarded as chivalrous behaviour, which harms women.

And for some strange reason, I never hear anyone taking issue with women being first in "Ladies and Gentlemen..."

Tell me about all those times ladies first is used for promotions and pay rises, for awards ceremonies at school university and work, for job candidates and anything that doesn’t involve more than walking through a door. The titanic was the exception - ladies first is usually binned on the spot when it matters, like who gets a lifeboat spot www.newscientist.com/article/dn22119-sinking-the-titanic-women-and-children-first-myth/

Is the Head male or female? Are there many females in the Leadership team?

And no YANBU at all. Very sensible to be considering these things.

@timeisnotaline Absolutely!

@whatisheupto Argh, I didn't look at the leadership team before. Am an idiot. In work situations, it's the first thing I do. The head teacher is a man but is generally agreed to be fantastic and certainly we've been impressed. But you're right - it looks like leadership is about 50/50 male/female but there's a small bias towards the "big" jobs being men and the more caring/pastoral being women. Also, I'm not thrilled about 50/50 in a school because its extremely unlikely that the staff ratio is 50/50. That does feel like a little bit of a red flag again.

fANtaStiC.

I've visited the school and really loved it so I'm not going to be all, "oh my god, this is a terrible misogynist environment" etc - there are clearly some fantastic things going on there. Also, the head is relatively new - about 4 years I think - and the school has clearly made massive strides in his time there. But it does feel relentless.

You may notice a highlighting of male achievements at secondary school because nationally at the moment, girls outperform boys at secondary level and there is a big push in secondaries to encourage boys to improve their attainment and have parity.

@greasyshoes

If you have gender at the forefront of your mind, then you're going to project that and assume that every decision made is a decision made to put men first. You are reading something into this which simply isn't there.

The evidence for this is the fact that the reverse situation is also considered to be sexist to the benefit of men. "Ladies first" is regarded as chivalrous behaviour, which harms women.

And for some strange reason, I never hear anyone taking issue with women being first in "Ladies and Gentlemen..."

This. These are non issues. Why does it matter that the head boy page is before the head girl's?

These are non issues. Why does it matter that the head boy page is before the head girl's?

In my experience, people who say this then also get annoyed about "virtue signalling" if the head girl DOES go first.

@LadyMacduff

You may notice a highlighting of male achievements at secondary school because nationally at the moment, girls outperform boys at secondary level and there is a big push in secondaries to encourage boys to improve their attainment and have parity.

Yes and they still get better jobs, higher pay and entitlement.

And it is not, "at the moment" it has always been the case where girls have been allowed to study the same subjects as boys.

OP

I'd send an email to the head, I'd ask whether it is always the head boy first or do they alternate each year? That gives them a get out clause and an idea of what they can do next time.

I'd send an email to the head, I'd ask whether it is always the head boy first or do they alternate each year? That gives them a get out clause and an idea of what they can do next time.

DH suggested similar. But, and I know this is me being pathetic, I don't want to be "that" mum, before DS even joins the bloody school. He's got enough challenges moving to high school already without his mum being seen as the annoying one. Which of course, is an issue in itself.

Perhaps DH should email the school......

@sashh

*Yes and they still get better jobs, higher pay and entitlement.

And it is not, "at the moment" it has always been the case where girls have been allowed to study the same subjects as boys.*

I'm not sure I catch your meaning. Are you suggesting that it's wrong of schools to challenge a culture of coasting and over confidence, reinforcing to both sexes the expectation that girls are held to a higher standard? I think this is wrong.

I think that schools doing what they can to show boys that working hard is an expectation, not an option is important. I think they should make role models out of boys who do get it right. How often do we see low expectations of men on Mumsnet, and women feeling that they need to pick up the burden because men "don't see mess" or "can't multi-task" or whatever it might be?

A school that demands a lot of its boys as well as its girls is a school that I could get on board with.

These are non issues. Why does it matter that the head boy page is before the head girl's?

In my experience, people who say this then also get annoyed about "virtue signalling" if the head girl DOES go first

I was the one who said it doesn't matter which one goes first. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the head girl got the first page. I honestly couldn't give a toss. So, no virtual signalling, it's not something I go in for. As I said, it's a complete non issue.

I'd send an email to the head, I'd ask whether it is always the head boy first or do they alternate each year? That gives them a get out clause and an idea of what they can do next time.

Really? Don't you think schools have enough to do without pandering to this kind of nonsense?

@LadyMacduff my point is that you have one group of pupils who work hard and achieve and the praise goes to the group that coasts, the energy of how to get students to engage goes to the group coasting and that this carries on in society.

Why should a boy work hard when he doesn't have to? And then the day he puts some effort in he gets praise and reward but the group consistently working hard doesn't.

@Tonya345 I think the celebration of equality and diversity IS important, for all at the school.

If the school booklet only had white pupils photographed in the science lab and black students on the sports field then I would be raising the same concerns.

It is the little insidious things that daily wear down girls' achievements and aspirations.

I raised this when I was working in a college, there was an advert for a boxing fitness class, open to both sexes but the poster showed three male boxers, this was in the September 2012, so weeks after Nicola Adams became the first woman in the world to win an Olympic gold medal.

The person running the class just hadn't considered who to put on the poster.

The same person had written a newsletter for sports in which the male basket ball team had smashed their way into the semi finals beating X, Y and Z on the way

On the next page it said how brave the women's team had been loosing to a better team in the quarter finals. There was no mention of the teams they had beaten, and until the quarter final they had been in the same place as the men's team.

@sashh where did I say that the girls don't get praised? They do. Highlighting the achievements of a male student does not mean that a female student is overlooked as though there is a finite amount.

Are you suggesting that the efforts made by schools to encourage boys to work as hard as girls for their grades stops? That we allow them to be socialised into thinking hard work is for women and that at the age of 16 they've failed to reach their potential, so what's the point? I don't see how this helps to build the husbands and fathers of the future that we want for our girls.

It is the little insidious things that daily wear down girls' achievements and aspirations.

It really IS this. And the fact that the default is always to have the boy first, that the 3 main leaders are men etc (office staff all women, obviously). I can see there are lots of things for girls at this school so I'm not about to completely freak out, but the insidiousness of this sort of thing does depress me.

Actually @greasyshoes 'ladies & gentlemen' sounds better and rolls off the tongue easier than the other way round, often the case with the longer word following the shorter.

My daughter went to a mixed primary and now attends a mixed secondary comprehensive. Although both are / were mixed, the environment at the secondary school is subtly but powerfully more boy-dominated. I don't know why this is. I / we always felt before that the girls were equal status to the boys, but now dd keeps getting annoyed by repeated inferences and implications in various different contexts that the boys do, are important, have agency; girls watch and support. She brings these stories home crossly and I am glad that she isn't desensitised enough to stop being cross - yet. Is it simply about size? Is it because at secondary school boys are physically so much bigger that now they expect to dominate? Is it hormonal? the "be a man" conditioning kicking in? It is very annoying

[quote LadyMacduff]@sashh where did I say that the girls don't get praised? They do. Highlighting the achievements of a male student does not mean that a female student is overlooked as though there is a finite amount.

Are you suggesting that the efforts made by schools to encourage boys to work as hard as girls for their grades stops? That we allow them to be socialised into thinking hard work is for women and that at the age of 16 they've failed to reach their potential, so what's the point? I don't see how this helps to build the husbands and fathers of the future that we want for our girls. [/quote]
But the efforts are not about making the boys work harder, they are about making things easier for the boys.

Picking books for the library with male lead characters, the same for English Lit.

These ARE socialising boys to think hard work is for girls.

The English Lit curriculum has plenty of problems without trying to make it even more pale, male and stale!

But there are initiatives afoot about tackling male overconfidence which is a factor. Things like being more blunt with feedback, being explicit about expectations of outcome such as 'this answer should be at least one side of A4' to raise the acceptable bare minimum standard that some students aim for. While it could be argued that being more explicit makes things easier, I think that they are also about making boys work harder.

OP, I think hold your fire. If you notice a trend that boys always come first, then say something when you have clear evidence. HTs and schools in general are really stressed and stretched right now with Covid, you won't get a meaningful positive response now if you point out the head boy came before the head girl in one piece of literature.

I think what you really need to watch out for is how gender non conformance is managed. Are the girls spaces kept single sex? Is girls sport kept single sex? Is overnight accommodation kept single sex?