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Feminism: chat

Met apologise for 'sexist, derogatory' language when searching woman

531 replies

ArabellaScott · 24/01/2022 19:12

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/met-apologises-to-academic-for-sexist-derogatory-language

'The Metropolitan police have apologised and paid compensation to an academic for “sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language” used by officers about her when she was strip-searched.'

'Duff was arrested on 5 May 2013 on suspicion of obstructing and assaulting police after trying to hand a legal advice card to a 15-year-old caught in a stop-and-search sweep in Hackney – allegations she was later cleared of in court. '

Is anyone going to do something about the police, at all?

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TooBigForMyBoots · 28/01/2022 00:00

@Felix125 is beautifully demonstrating why women should fear or at least mistrust the police. Even the "good cops" will leap to the defence of their less professional colleagues. They will do no more than close ranks and be silent when wrongdoing occurs. They ignore the misogyny/racism etc in their ranks, thereby allowing it to continue. They minimise police abuse of power. And sometimes they actively assist in cover ups.

And that's the "good ones".Hmm Women should know this.

Felix125 · 28/01/2022 02:08

@TooBigForMyBoots

At 16:40 today you said in response to my comment about women being told to "challenge the police, yes, but not to the point of assaulting & obstructing them. Dr. Duff did not assault or obstruct any officer.

At 17:34 you wrote The handing the card isn't the issue Its the assault on police & obstruct police which is Dr. Duff did not assault or obstruct the police.

Yes - "..so you can challenge the police but not assault them.."

Its a statement of fact

Where i have said that Dr Duff has assaulted the police on this occasion.
In fact i have said that she was arrested for the allegation of assault & obstruct

The issue raised is the assault & obstruct police - that's what the arrest was for. That's what the charge was for and what she went to court for to be triled for.

If you want to play word games - how do you know that no assault happened - were you there? The fact that someone is found not guilty at court does not mean to say it didn't happen - its just can not be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

Felix125 · 28/01/2022 02:17

whatthechicken

And people don't seem to be listening to me as I have still not had anyone answer my issue raised.

If people here are 'happy' the arrest was lawful (as stated in some previous posts on here) but she is refusing to give her details - can you see the issue custody have in safeguarding her?

Can you see the issues they will have to ensure she is not concealing any items if they know nothing about her?

What would you expect to have happened in this case? Bearing in mind it wasn't long ago that a custody sergeant was shot dead at work by someone concealing an item.

TooBigForMyBoots · 28/01/2022 02:49

I'm not happy that the arrest was lawful. I consider Dr Duff's arrest to be at best, unnecessary and at worst an abuse of power by the police officers present.

Where i have said that Dr Duff has assaulted the police on this occasion.

Were you talking about someone else when you said what I quoted? Who were you talking about when you said The handing the card isn't the issueIts the assault on police & obstruct police which is if not Dr. Duff?

TooBigForMyBoots · 28/01/2022 03:41

Can you see the issues they will have to ensure she is not concealing any items if they know nothing about her?

So if the police know nothing about a woman, they should assume she is concealing something in her vagina or anus?Blush "Treat her like a terrorist."?Confused Hold her down? Cut off her clothes?Shock So violently that they inflict physical injury?Hmm Subject her to sexual humiliation?🤯

That's really messed up @Felix125.

MarvellousMrsMaisel · 28/01/2022 04:19

I most definitely do not accept the strip search of Dr Duff was warranted. I do not accept that having safeguarding concerns is enough to justify a strip search. Such a power needs to be exercised via a very careful accountable assessment.

You seem very easily to dismiss/ignore the trauma caused by searches - so evident in the case of Dr Duff - but also caused to many who suffer such a humiliating and violating search.

Given what we know of the statistics around, for example, stop and search and ethnicity, of institutional sexism racism etc, I definitely do not have confidence or trust in the police to properly manage the very serious considerations needed before a decision to strip search. There needs to be much better accountability.

Curiousmouse · 28/01/2022 04:57

@Felix125 It's bloody obvious she was arrested because police took offence that she was offering advice to young people about their rights. Safeguarding, my arse.

DingleyDel · 28/01/2022 07:14

Given what we know of the statistics around, for example, stop and search and ethnicity, of institutional sexism racism etc, I definitely do not have confidence or trust in the police to properly manage the very serious considerations needed before a decision to strip search. There needs to be much better accountability.

I agree with this. As for the question should the police strip search women, I’m not sure they should actually. Unless as stated above there are very strict criteria met. Given that the police in this case couldn’t even decide on the reasons for the strip search clearly strict criteria were not met.

MarshaBradyo · 28/01/2022 07:16

@MarvellousMrsMaisel

I most definitely do not accept the strip search of Dr Duff was warranted. I do not accept that having safeguarding concerns is enough to justify a strip search. Such a power needs to be exercised via a very careful accountable assessment.

You seem very easily to dismiss/ignore the trauma caused by searches - so evident in the case of Dr Duff - but also caused to many who suffer such a humiliating and violating search.

Given what we know of the statistics around, for example, stop and search and ethnicity, of institutional sexism racism etc, I definitely do not have confidence or trust in the police to properly manage the very serious considerations needed before a decision to strip search. There needs to be much better accountability.

I agree with this and don’t accept that it is warranted
ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 07:35

the fact that someone is found not guilty at court does not mean to say it didn't happen - its just can not be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

You might know the letter if the law but you do not seem to grasp the spirit of the law. Innocent until proven guilty is the bedrock of a free and democratic society and should be deeply respected.

No, I am not happy she was lawfully arrested. Given the whole case is based on filmed evidence of police misconduct and abuse, can you not imagine why?

If this is how you respond to a woman traumatised by police abuse and assault, what on earth do you see your duty as? You're supposed to protect people. People are supposed to be able to trust the police! Instead you're here expending huge energy trying to argue this woman was in some way to blame for the appalling treatment she received.

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MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 28/01/2022 08:28

What would you expect to have happened in this case? Bearing in mind it wasn't long ago that a custody sergeant was shot dead at work by someone concealing an item

Where were they concealing that item? In their anus?

Thought not.

Just stop now. Ffs

Felix125 · 28/01/2022 09:02

@MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor

What would you expect to have happened in this case? Bearing in mind it wasn't long ago that a custody sergeant was shot dead at work by someone concealing an item

Where were they concealing that item? In their anus?

Thought not.

Just stop now. Ffs

I've seen mobile phones and charges being secreted in bodily cavities - so yes, viable firearms can be small and easily secreted in such places.

I'm not talking about shot guns or Clint Eastwood's .44 Magnum. Viable firearms can be tiny, made of ceramic/plastic so it doesn't shown on a metal detector.

AllCatsAreBeautiful · 28/01/2022 09:12

Absolutely horrible, and the attempts by the police officer who came on this thread to smear the woman involved is so telling about the whole attitude of the police. Vile.

One of the women filmed without her consent by Neil Corbel, the Met police officer convicted of 19 counts of intimate filming without consent last week, has written about her experience & how it made her feel to be one of the women Corbel violated in this way. Her piece very much deserves to be read: inews.co.uk/opinion/my-client-was-a-police-officer-who-secretly-filmed-me-new-laws-make-it-harder-for-sex-workers-to-report-abuse-1420416

Whatthechicken · 28/01/2022 09:24

@Felix125 you have mentioned lots of times about safeguarding officers in custody suites. I don’t think you’ve once mentioned the safeguarding of Dr Duff who was vulnerable, scared and traumatised. The police officers involved in this failed in their duty of care for Dr Duff, in fact they were cruel.

Felix125 · 28/01/2022 09:34

Strip Searching - generally, not just this specific case

People get strip search every day in custody. Males & females, conducted by the same sex officers. The vast, vast majority of these are done compliantly - in that the subject is taken to a cell and compliantly removes the clothing.

So we usually start with the top - say a jumper. Subject removes that and its searched & put to one side, then the subject removes their t-shirt - it is searched and put to one side. If that now means the person is now topless you can ask them to raise their arms to make sure nothing is attached to their arm pit, nothing is attached to the front of the chest or their back, look inside their mouth, hair, ears etc.

For women, they will have to remove their bra and the area checked in a similar way.

Then if your happy nothing is there, they put the top half of the clothing back on and you repeat the process with their lower half. And you will have to look into bodily cavities.

Now, you can not touch them in intimate areas.

If you find that they have an item plugged in their anus for example, you can only get them to remove it. So, say its a drugs package - you have to consider the possibility that if they remove the package they may quickly swallow it, even though they have been completely compliant so far. So, each officer would take hold of their hand/wrist and apply a handcuff. You would then ask the subject to remove the item. You control their hand by controlling the other half of the handcuff. That way you can stop them from putting the item in their mouth.

If they refuse to remove the item - you then handcuff them to the rear, so they can't put the item in their mouth. Cover them back up with a blanket and arrange to take them to hospital where a doctor/consultant will assess if & how to remove it.

BUT

If the person is not compliant or refuses to be strip searched - then you may have to take a different approach

It could be that the subject just refuses to remove the clothes, so the officer does them, but no resistance is offered.

But what if the subject begins to actively resist the officers doing this? Offering some physical resistance against them.

We can't just not search if a search has been authorised - what if the subject has an item on them?

Then you need to restrain the subject and remove the items. This is done taking the subject onto a foam mat, taking them to their knees and laying them flat with their hands outstretched where you can control them. The items of clothing may need to be cut from the subject depending on the ease of removing the items weighed against the chance of assaults on staff. The process will be the same - top half, then bottom half. Obviously they won't be able to dress themselves between each phase, but a blanket can be used for this.

So, my question is - how would you change this process?

If you believe the subject is concealing something - or last time the subject was in custody they were found with drugs plugged into their anus, what do you expect to happen in custody if the subject refuses to be strip search compliantly?

Felix125 · 28/01/2022 09:35

[quote Whatthechicken]@Felix125 you have mentioned lots of times about safeguarding officers in custody suites. I don’t think you’ve once mentioned the safeguarding of Dr Duff who was vulnerable, scared and traumatised. The police officers involved in this failed in their duty of care for Dr Duff, in fact they were cruel.[/quote]
I have, we need to safeguard her so that if she has anything concealed, she won't use them to harm herself.

Again, given the above process - how would you change it?

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 09:37

This woman did not have a ceramic gun up her arse. Please stop, you're being utterly ridiculous, and this is not helping anyone or anything.

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Felix125 · 28/01/2022 09:39

[quote AllCatsAreBeautiful]Absolutely horrible, and the attempts by the police officer who came on this thread to smear the woman involved is so telling about the whole attitude of the police. Vile.

One of the women filmed without her consent by Neil Corbel, the Met police officer convicted of 19 counts of intimate filming without consent last week, has written about her experience & how it made her feel to be one of the women Corbel violated in this way. Her piece very much deserves to be read: inews.co.uk/opinion/my-client-was-a-police-officer-who-secretly-filmed-me-new-laws-make-it-harder-for-sex-workers-to-report-abuse-1420416[/quote]
How am I 'smearing the woman involved'?

I am discussing the process which was used by police and how you would like to see it changed - but people here don't seem to want to answer the issues/questions i have raised.

And people say I'm not listening?

And i have said several times, the comments and language used against her was wrong.

Felix125 · 28/01/2022 09:40

@ArabellaScott

This woman did not have a ceramic gun up her arse. Please stop, you're being utterly ridiculous, and this is not helping anyone or anything.
I didn't say she did

I saying that items (such as this) can be sneaked into custody by subjects.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 09:46

You are not listening, Felix. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do, here. I'm not anti police and I've been trying to keep an open mind but believe me, your insistence that she must have done something to deserve this appalling treatment is not helping to improve the reputation of the police.

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SomePosters · 28/01/2022 09:53

Can’t believe that copper is still defending the sexual assault her colleagues performed

And people wonder why no one trusts police anymore

I was brought up to trust the police but I learned the hard way that they’d rather kill protestors than stop murderers

The rot goes all the way felix and as long as you choose to put the uniform on you’re suspect

Using your spare time to defend your uniformed colleagues assaulting a woman on some bullshit power trip is disgraceful.

Are you going to defend the copper that raped my mum when she was an 11yo fleeing a violent home, or that pig that murdered Sarah and his top brass who said TO THE PRESS she shouldn’t have ‘allowed herself to be arrested’
How about the spy cops who were having sexual relations (and at least one baby) with teenagers?
West Yorkshire police covering for Saville?

The rot goes all the way and you choose it when you put your uniform on

Isthatthebestyoucando · 28/01/2022 10:15

In this day and age why doesn’t every single police officer at all times on duty wear a working body cam?

Why wouldn’t every cell have a camera with audio? I do not believe for one minute that a police officers version of events is automatically worth more than anyone else’s, it’s very dangerous to give any group of people that much automatic trust, especially those in the type of career that attracts individuals who want control and authority over other people.

I respect the need for intimate searches and the proper way of conducting them in clinical fashion, but in the case of this woman and going by the instructions treat her like a terrorist, show her resistance is futile do you accept felix that the proper way to search was bypassed before it had a chance to begin?
There was no foam mat, she said her head was banging off of the floor. There was no blanket to cover one half at a time, they grabbed her breasts and put their hands between her legs. In this instance it seems an awful lot to the lay person that this search was conducted as a heavy handed punishment.

ArabellaScott · 28/01/2022 10:40

There was a move to have bodycams on police, Isthat. I expect there are some issues to consider wrt privacy etc. But I agree that it if those issues could be addressed it sounds like it might protect both the populace and the police.

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