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Feminism: chat

Met apologise for 'sexist, derogatory' language when searching woman

531 replies

ArabellaScott · 24/01/2022 19:12

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/met-apologises-to-academic-for-sexist-derogatory-language

'The Metropolitan police have apologised and paid compensation to an academic for “sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language” used by officers about her when she was strip-searched.'

'Duff was arrested on 5 May 2013 on suspicion of obstructing and assaulting police after trying to hand a legal advice card to a 15-year-old caught in a stop-and-search sweep in Hackney – allegations she was later cleared of in court. '

Is anyone going to do something about the police, at all?

OP posts:
Felix125 · 26/01/2022 09:24

@MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor

So your comment it was a "...useful allegation so that the police could go ahead and assault / humiliate her..." is not correct.

In your opinion. Although I understand there are still ongoing investigations around the police conduct in this case. Finally. Handing out a business card is not a criminal offense. And the other allegations against her were simply proven not to be true. A convenient excuse however.

When the premise for arresting her was bogus in the first place, then the actions (strip search and humiliation) following on from that absolutely should not have happened either.

Yet the police continued to deliberately lie about what happened that day. Until the evidence was brought to light. Don't you even stop to consider why they kept lying? Work for Gwent police do you?

No, the court have not said that the allegations have been proven not to be true.

They have said that there was insufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt

Two different things.

If the arrest allegation was 'proven not to be true', then the officer would be facing perjury or perverting the course of justice.

And how do you know the arresting wasn't assaulted?
Or are you just assuming?

And when they reached custody and they still refuse their details, how do you expect the custody staff to risk assess her?

Do they just assume she hasn't got any items on her which could cause harm, because they can not do any background checks on her without her details?

Felix125 · 26/01/2022 09:27

@MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor

Stop derailing this thread Felix. It's not a place for the police to come and defend their corruption.
Its a discussion forum where people can discuss things This is the subject which is being discussed here
jlpartnerrs · 26/01/2022 09:40

If she had not had the tenacity and strength to pursue this case for 10 years to get justice - it would just be another hidden misconduct issue for the met police.

Another example of misconduct in public office.

It's not on

We can see what happened

Stop trying to defend the indefensible

colouringindoors · 26/01/2022 10:24

10 years to get the truth. What an amazing woman.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 26/01/2022 10:30

Its a discussion forum where people can discuss things
This is the subject which is being discussed here

Discussed? Or continuous minimisation and excuses from a representative of the police themselves.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/01/2022 10:32

Dr Duff is being interviewed on Woman's Hour this morning. Over half an hour so far, so very detailed account of what happened. Horrifying.

ArabellaScott · 26/01/2022 10:32

Felix.

Thanks for coming on and offering the other point of view. And thank you for being a policeperson that does not bend the law. We need more police who do so.

A reminder: we're discussing the abuse and humiliation of a woman at the hands of the police.

Do you understand, at all, the depth of anger, hurt and frustration that women in this country currently feel about the police? I think you'll agree that police are not in a good place at the moment and that we need a functioning, efficient and law abiding police force?

So you're here on a forum to give the opposing view to women who are raging. Are you also in police forums offering the opposing view, letting them know how women feel and makign sure they're not making assumptions about prisoners, propogating prejudice and supporting abuses of power?

There is a fundamental imbalance of power here. Do you recognise that? What do you think will happen if public trust in the police breaks down? What do you think about women being victimised and the double standards applied currently?

OP posts:
MummyWoodentop · 26/01/2022 10:40

She interferes in an armed arrest - seems her arrest and strip search were upheld so I think she is skipping some of the story.
Only the sexist banter was upheld.

MummyWoodentop · 26/01/2022 10:43

She wasn't wrongly arrested - people are assuming this

nettie434 · 26/01/2022 11:23

I don't think anyone on the thread is arguing about the arrest. They are complaining about Koshka Duff's treatment while she was in custody. Although she was charged with two counts of assaulting a police officer and one charged of obstructing a police officer, she was acquitted of all charges following a trial in 2013.

She was on Woman's Hour today giving her perspective. It's a quite detailed interview:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013rb0

ArabellaScott · 26/01/2022 11:34

she was acquitted of all charges

The most basic principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' really seems to pass some people by.

The woman has been cleared. The police have been found guilty.

OP posts:
TooBigForMyBoots · 26/01/2022 11:50

@Felix125, thanks for coming onto the thread to show that even those police officers who follow the rules will jump to the defence of their less professional colleagues. Great insight.Hmm

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/01/2022 12:18

Felix - as a matter of interest, there's been a fair amount in the news about police officers routinely having misogynist, racist, ableist banter etc. in WhatsApp groups. The officers who took selfies with the bodies of dead women felt comfortable enough to share them on social media groups, I gather.

I wonder how many of your colleagues you've upbraided for such practices on social media or in your notional workplace? More importantly, how many of them have you reported for their lapses in professionalism and how much they undermine the trust of the public?

jlpartnerrs · 26/01/2022 12:28

Can I just link - the me too police website.....

Just in case anyone fancied saying that this was a one off, bad apple ect?

police-me-too.co.uk/

SomePosters · 26/01/2022 13:07

News flash… middle class women discover what everyone else knew

Police are violent and dangerous and not someone you call to tell your neighbours to have quieter sex or make them cut their hedge to you liking

ACAB you just haven’t been their target yet

Felix125 · 26/01/2022 13:29

[quote nettie434]I don't think anyone on the thread is arguing about the arrest. They are complaining about Koshka Duff's treatment while she was in custody. Although she was charged with two counts of assaulting a police officer and one charged of obstructing a police officer, she was acquitted of all charges following a trial in 2013.

She was on Woman's Hour today giving her perspective. It's a quite detailed interview:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013rb0[/quote]
So, now we a getting somewhere - I think

Are we no happy that the arrest may have been lawful?
That is to say at the time of the arrest - she had been arrested on suspicion of those offences.

That's not say she is automatically guilty - as that can only be given at a court of law.

At the point of arrest, she can be summonsed there and then without a need to enter into custody - but to do this we need a name & address so the court can serve the summons.

If she is refusing to give her details, then its is necessary to bring her to custody with a view of putting her before the next available court.

Then, when she arrives in custody, you have the issue that if you don't know anything about her and she is still refusing to give her details - you don't know if she has a risk of concealing items. Therefore you have to consider a search, just in case it turns out she is prolific in concealing dangerous items.

The comments made following this search are indefeasible and wrong - and i have said this numerous times on here.

Felix125 · 26/01/2022 13:30

[quote TooBigForMyBoots]@Felix125, thanks for coming onto the thread to show that even those police officers who follow the rules will jump to the defence of their less professional colleagues. Great insight.Hmm[/quote]
I'm not jumping to their defence

As i have said a number of times now - her treatment after the arrest by the comments made about her was wrong and can not be defended.

DingleyDel · 26/01/2022 13:37

I would urge anyone commenting on this to listen to her interview on Womens hour. The way she was treated is completely indefensible. It’s wasn’t just the comments made. She was left with injuries, which she has photographs of. The reason for the strip search was changed half way through her legal battle to being ‘concern for her mental health’. The reasons for carrying out a violent strip search should surely be crystal clear from the start. That really proves they knew it wasn’t justified. You can hear how traumatised she has been, and the length of time that it’s dragged on confirms what we know already. That the police obfuscate and outright lie when complaints are made to protect themselves. How many other people does this happen to who don’t have the fight/energy/ time/ money to expose it?

Isthatthebestyoucando · 26/01/2022 13:38

@SomePosters

News flash… middle class women discover what everyone else knew

Police are violent and dangerous and not someone you call to tell your neighbours to have quieter sex or make them cut their hedge to you liking

ACAB you just haven’t been their target yet

I think there's a lot of truth in that.
I don't think decent people would fit in.
TooBigForMyBoots · 26/01/2022 14:35

I'm assuming a male was being stop searched and she was interfering with that process?

I assume she has then go on to assault the officer in some way, which is why she was brought into custody.

Do you also honestly believe that members of the public 'never make shit up'

I am merely putting the 'other side of the argument' across.

No, not jumping to their defence at all @Felix125. How many times have you complained about the unsavoury antics of your colleagues?

MarshaBradyo · 26/01/2022 14:43

That is so awful

Assault more than anything

nettie434 · 26/01/2022 14:44

DingleyDel is right. It's really important to listen to the Woman's Hour interview. She talks about not being read her rights, being told the reason for the search was to establish her identity (she did not want to say anything until she had a lawyer) and then being changed to say it was because of her mental health. She does say the police did not want her to tell the teenager his rights and that she 'went limp' when they arrested her and put her in the van (i.e. she was not actively resisting arrest).

Her argument is that the search was not necessary. It was undertaken to punish her for attempting to advise the teenager.

jlpartnerrs · 26/01/2022 15:17

I believe her.

I nearly got into hot water during the pandemic for a similar kind of thing. I live in a very diverse neighbourhood and I was cycling to work at 3.30 am in the morning. I was stopped three times on my way to work. This didn't happen to the people coming in from the affluent area's on their bikes. It was a running joke at work.

I digress, one of the times I was cycling in they had stopped my neighbour's son who works similar hours but not where I do,. He's brown, I'm white MC. He was being searched and I asked under what power were they searching him. They (rightly) said I had no authority to ask that question and I replied that I certainly didn't but my friend's son did, and furthermore they had to provide a ticket at the end so that he had a record should he decide to take it further.

It got heated, lets just say that I was fortunate that they were called away, and completed the S&S abruptly and said that they would post the p/w on.

After they left m friend's son said they didn't have his address because they didn't ask for it and that they had racially abused him, but that was nothing new. He has been stopped and searched more than once. He doesn't stand for his rights because he knows that he might end up in custody or worse and he doesn't carry any illegal substances so for him it's the lesser of two evils. He would never challenge a police officer for that reason. He finds S&S's humiliating but part of his everyday experience.

Felix125 · 26/01/2022 16:12

@TooBigForMyBoots

I'm assuming a male was being stop searched and she was interfering with that process?

I assume she has then go on to assault the officer in some way, which is why she was brought into custody.

Do you also honestly believe that members of the public 'never make shit up'

I am merely putting the 'other side of the argument' across.

No, not jumping to their defence at all @Felix125. How many times have you complained about the unsavoury antics of your colleagues?

I have said quite a few times on here that the comments made to her etc were indefensible and wrong.

Other people on here have said that they don't have a problem with the arrest. Whilst others say that the whole incident was wrong.

I have complained a few times in the past - but my colleagues who I work at present are professional and don't raise any problems that i need to complain about.

Felix125 · 26/01/2022 16:40

@ArabellaScott

Felix.

Thanks for coming on and offering the other point of view. And thank you for being a policeperson that does not bend the law. We need more police who do so.

A reminder: we're discussing the abuse and humiliation of a woman at the hands of the police.

Do you understand, at all, the depth of anger, hurt and frustration that women in this country currently feel about the police? I think you'll agree that police are not in a good place at the moment and that we need a functioning, efficient and law abiding police force?

So you're here on a forum to give the opposing view to women who are raging. Are you also in police forums offering the opposing view, letting them know how women feel and makign sure they're not making assumptions about prisoners, propogating prejudice and supporting abuses of power?

There is a fundamental imbalance of power here. Do you recognise that? What do you think will happen if public trust in the police breaks down? What do you think about women being victimised and the double standards applied currently?

No problem - its my job & duty to uphold the law and support victims of crime and vulnerable people. Its a role I enjoy and i will continue to help & support such people. But I can only do this within the 'bubble of the law' which I am not prepared to step outside of. So, dropping people off on the moor to teach them a lesson, or arresting youngsters to teach them a lesson is out - despite various parents & victims or crime trying to persuade me otherwise. I act professionally and will continue to do so. And to be honest, its not a difficult thing to do.

Yes - I understand all too well the depth of anger, hurt and frustration that women in this country currently feel about the police. But the majority of people in the country are satisfied with the service they get from their local police.

So, in this case - if people here are 'happy' the arrest was lawful (as stated above) but she is refusing to give her details - can you see the issue custody have in safeguarding her? Can you see the issues they will have to ensure she is not concealing any items if they know nothing about her? What would you expect to have happened in this case? Bearing in mind it wasn't long ago that a custody sergeant was shot dead at work by someone concealing an item.

I don't know of any police forums - but if they are any - i will be saying the same things on there. If officers find it acceptable to ridicule and act inappropriately to members of the public i will tell them that it is not acceptable. If its wrong, its wrong no matter what forum i am on.

I'm not sure if there is an imbalance of power here. She was arrested and so her liberty has been taken from her. If custody believe there is a risk that she may have a concealed item from the information given (or not given) to them they have to make a judgement on whether to do a full search of her.

That being said, the officers must act professionally at all times. They way a person is searched and 'held down' in a cell has specific training. And the training is all about conducting a search with the minimum chance of injury to the subject whilst achieving the objective of the search.

The comments made after the search are wrong - and I have said it numerous times now on here. If this forms part of the victimisation of her, then clearly its unacceptable.

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