Met apologise for 'sexist, derogatory' language when searching woman

[ArabellaScott]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/24/met-apologises-to-academic-for-sexist-derogatory-language

'The Metropolitan police have apologised and paid compensation to an academic for “sexist, derogatory and unacceptable language” used by officers about her when she was strip-searched.'

'Duff was arrested on 5 May 2013 on suspicion of obstructing and assaulting police after trying to hand a legal advice card to a 15-year-old caught in a stop-and-search sweep in Hackney – allegations she was later cleared of in court. '

Is anyone going to do something about the police, at all?

@TooBigForMyBoots

Like I said before - i don't mind not having to strip search anyone - less work for me to be honest.

Strip search is a huge power and responsibility. Perhaps it should be out of custody sergeants' hands altogether @felix125.🤔

Maybe - that is a good point

But who would you consult for this?

Someone competent and able to do the job would be good. Maybe they need to come from without the police.

Define competent though - they're all human beings and fallible.
And would they be there just to decide on necessities for strip searching?

We'll just trust AI in future, then when something goes wrong we can blame the AI machine.

Ooh i do love it when someone says AI cant do something whilst clsarly knowing nothing about AI...

You do realise police forces are already using AI dont you? I mean you wouldnt be commenting on how unrealistic it would be to use AI in one area of policing, whilst not knowing its used in other areas, you who are condesending to explain all of the inner workings of the force to us wimmin

You know if you go for surgery depending on the surgery it may involve AI right, or are you going to refuse that now in case the AI machine gets it wrong?

Or we can talk about how its reducing money laundering (aka making your jobs easier)

Im not saying its perfect (although given the golden globes use Ai enhanced body scanners to pick up things like plastic guns its definitely on its way) but you really are determined that trip searches are the one and only way and absolutely defensible in all senarios arent you

I would like to belive you are a troll, as ypu appear to want to defend police officers who have killed or assaulted people. Unfortunatly the actions of the police make me think its far more likely you are in fact a typical police officer with a hero complex and an overwhelming sense of superiority

Given all the stuff that has come out about police sexual assaults and attacks on women anyone withput the above qualities might be able to read the fucking room and not come on her lecturing us all on how it was perfectly justifiable to sexually assault a woman for handing someone a piece of paper. But sure, you are the good guys right?

All the way through this thread i have said:

The language used and the comments made were wrong and if the process which i described on page 6/7 for searching was stepped outside of and she was assaulted for no reason other than to effect the search - then it was wrong.

So I am not blindly defending the police here.

And i have said before about the dangers of 'things' being passed to people who have been detained for possession of offensive weapons/bladed items

And yes - the police are 'experimenting' with AI - and i'm all for that. Facial recognition etc etc; brilliant and the work should continue to enhance this further. Although if i stop a drug dealer in the street with £1000 in his pocket, i'm not sure how AI will help determine if its money laundering or not - especially when he comes up with a plausible excuse.

But i don't think we are at the stage to rely on AI for people sneaking things into custody. And how exactly will an AI machine be able to process any information from someone who is refusing their details?

I don't think the AI machines at the Golden Globes were checking for small burner phones and packets of zopiclones being sneaked in via bodily cavities.

You know scanners which utilise AI dont stop working if someone doesnt give their name right? What exactly do you think they are doing?

Or that I wasnt suggesting algorithms to detect money laundering be used to work out if a few pounds in someones pocket is used for money laundering, they are literally in use detecting billions of pounds on money laundering, but then im not sure how strip searching is going to reveal anything that would help with that anyway

And scanners exist which can scan body cavities

You have very strong opinions on something you clearly know very little about

And again, because you are struggling with this. AI detects what you want it to detect. At the golden globes it was there to detect the likes of plastic guns and ceramic knives, why on earth do you think it would be able to detect an entire phone!

So if the technology exists to:
Scan body cavities
Scan for plastic guns, ceramic blade, phones, wooden knives, any shape you want
You can provide someone with fresh clothes to avoid cords
Sniffer dogs can be trained to sniff the vast majority of drugs

That leaves an increasingly small, rare amount of things that could be found on the average person

So it seems rather old fashioned, set in your ways, unwilling to move with the times, etc to still be arguing that the only one right true possible method that will work is the same one that can be used to humiliate, coerce and subdue someone doesnt it, almost like the reason is that you dont want to stop using strip searches

When I say competent I mean not the lazy, prejudiced, violent, incompetent sergeants like the ones you linked to and the officers in Dr Duff's case.

I would also include officers like you in that @felix125. An officer who cannot see the seriously fucked up job done by the police in Dr Duff's case is too incompetent and prejudiced to have the power of Strip search.

So it seems rather old fashioned, set in your ways, unwilling to move with the times, etc to still be arguing that the only one right true possible method that will work is the same one that can be used to humiliate, coerce and subdue someone doesnt it, almost like the reason is that you dont want to stop using strip searches.

I think you're right @Toomanyradishes.

@TooBigForMyBoots

When I say competent I mean not the lazy, prejudiced, violent, incompetent sergeants like the ones you linked to and the officers in Dr Duff's case.

I would also include officers like you in that @felix125. An officer who cannot see the seriously fucked up job done by the police in Dr Duff's case is too incompetent and prejudiced to have the power of Strip search.

But presumably you believe that all police are lazy, prejudiced, violent, incompetent - so who would you get to make the decision?

@Toomanyradishes

You know scanners which utilise AI dont stop working if someone doesnt give their name right? What exactly do you think they are doing?

Or that I wasnt suggesting algorithms to detect money laundering be used to work out if a few pounds in someones pocket is used for money laundering, they are literally in use detecting billions of pounds on money laundering, but then im not sure how strip searching is going to reveal anything that would help with that anyway

And scanners exist which can scan body cavities

You have very strong opinions on something you clearly know very little about

And again, because you are struggling with this. AI detects what you want it to detect. At the golden globes it was there to detect the likes of plastic guns and ceramic knives, why on earth do you think it would be able to detect an entire phone!

So if the technology exists to:
Scan body cavities
Scan for plastic guns, ceramic blade, phones, wooden knives, any shape you want
You can provide someone with fresh clothes to avoid cords
Sniffer dogs can be trained to sniff the vast majority of drugs

That leaves an increasingly small, rare amount of things that could be found on the average person

So it seems rather old fashioned, set in your ways, unwilling to move with the times, etc to still be arguing that the only one right true possible method that will work is the same one that can be used to humiliate, coerce and subdue someone doesnt it, almost like the reason is that you dont want to stop using strip searches

No - like i said before - i am all for AI.

I don't particularly want to strip search people if at all possible - and if we do need to do it, then a compliant strip search is far better for everyone concerned.

But i can't see how an AI scanner is going to determine someones risk level of self harm or violence or concealing items. Its only as good as the information is has to work with - and if the person is not revealing any information to it - it wont be able to make a judgement. And as far as i am aware, any internally secreted item can only be picked up using an x-ray or similar scanner at a hospital - and that's a medical procedure which must be authorised by a doctor/consultant first.

But i am all for AI scanners if they will be able to detect such things and for the police to rely on them instead of searching people - less work for us & less responsibility. Maybe in the future it can be a possibility.

But i think they are going to be too expensive for each police station to have. Might be another campaign for the next election, but at the moment we are struggling to replace bobbies on the beat, replace panda cars which are knackered and are literally patched up over & over again because a new one is too expensive. Dwelling burglaries in the dead of night where we have the area surrounded wont have any air support as its too expensive to have the helicopter lift. - Hell, I'm trying to order a charger cable for my laptop and having it knocked back.

That leaves an increasingly small, rare amount of things that could be found on the average person

I agree - but we deal with this small rare amount or people on a relatively frequent basis who are hell bent on sneaking things into custody. And they will do this to sell on if they go to jail, to harm themselves or others - or even just to scratch their name on the cell door out of devilment.

And its the chance that one of these increasingly small, rare amount of things slips through which is the worst case scenario.

No - like i said before - i am all for AI.

excellent, if you are all for AI I assume you are out there asking for it, proactively suggesting alternatives to strip searches, constructively challenging the status quo?

I don't particularly want to strip search people if at all possible - and if we do need to do it, then a compliant strip search is far better for everyone concerned.

some of the people not giving their name with have severe metal health issues, just because a compliant strip search is better for you doesnt make it better for them

But i can't see how an AI scanner is going to determine someones risk level of self harm or violence or concealing items. Its only as good as the information is has to work with - and if the person is not revealing any information to it - it wont be able to make a judgement.

I never suggested it did, you seem to be the only one going down this path. I suggested using AI enhanced body scanners, not to determine self harm, but to find concealed weapons and drugs as that is for justification for strip searches

And as far as i am aware, any internally secreted item can only be picked up using an x-ray or similar scanner at a hospital - and that's a medical procedure which must be authorised by a doctor/consultant first.

you are wrong, although at the mpment you wouldnt be able to use them on under 16s because apparently it falls under the 'naked photo of a minor' category in the uk when using these machines even though thats not strictly the end goal. But I assume you arent routinely strip searching minors to force compliance

But i am all for AI scanners if they will be able to detect such things and for the police to rely on them instead of searching people - less work for us & less responsibility. Maybe in the future it can be a possibility.

this is the future, we are in this future, catch up

But i think they are going to be too expensive for each police station to have. Might be another campaign for the next election, but at the moment we are struggling to replace bobbies on the beat, replace panda cars which are knackered and are literally patched up over & over again because a new one is too expensive. Dwelling burglaries in the dead of night where we have the area surrounded wont have any air support as its too expensive to have the helicopter lift. - Hell, I'm trying to order a charger cable for my laptop and having it knocked back.

as I have already said I know the police dont control how much money they have, I know they are undefunded. What I want to know is, as there are better ways, why arent police officers speaking up, demanding better equipment, explaining how intrusive strip searches can be avoided. They are quick enough putting posters up blaming rape on women drinking, but utterly silent on this. Why is that?

That leaves an increasingly small, rare amount of things that could be found on the average person

agree - but we deal with this small rare amount or people on a relatively frequent basis who are hell bent on sneaking things into custody. And they will do this to sell on if they go to jail, to harm themselves or others - or even just to scratch their name on the cell door out of devilment.

you know we could get down to the specifics of whats left when we have removed anything in bodily cavities, drugs, wooden objects, plastic objects, matal objects, phones, ceramic objects, items of clothing. But actually you know what I think its your last sentence which is most telling. You are justifying strip searching someone so they cant scratch their name on a wall. And thats a repugnant attitude.

And its the chance that one of these increasingly small, rare amount of things slips through which is the worst case scenario.

yep graffitti really is the worst case senario here isnt it

Given all the stuff that has come out about police sexual assaults and attacks on women anyone withput the above qualities might be able to read the fucking room and not come on her lecturing us all on how it was perfectly justifiable to sexually assault a woman for handing someone a piece of paper. But sure, you are the good guys right?

I notice you havent responded to this. You keep repeatedly telling me AI cant do things that it can do, despite the fact you are self admittedly bad with technology and can barely google (which is a shame because then maybe you could try googling the stuff you keep getting me to repeat) because apparently the only qualification you need in technology is a penis

Im not sure if what you have is an over bearing sense of male entitlement, or if it is because you are a police officer, but I suspect its a bit of both and what makes you potentially a bad police officer.

So again, given the facts that have come out over the past few years on just how sexist and mysoginistic the police force are, why do you feel the need to shove your way into a group of women, discussing the impacts of such things on women to tell us all how wrong we are

Do you really think this is appropriate. Do you really think you are good a reading a room, judging reactions and understanding context. Or do you just barge in because you think its your right, without considering whether its appropriate? And Im not just referring to this thread, Ive seen you on others. Because again, this potentially makes you a bad police officer

And do you think its possible that forces that are staffed, and have historically been staffed, by an abundance of men with similar attitudes, might explain some of the monumental fuck ups that have happened. And that maybe if you spent less time telling us we were wrong maybe all of you might make the force better?

No, I'm not wrong. Unless the doctors & consultants at A&E are also wrong when they say the only way to find out what is plugged is via an x-ray, MRI etc etc. So, A&E don't even have these magic AI scanners. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is to have to take a prisoner from custody into A&E - the escape risk goes through the roof let a lone the risks/inconvenience to patients & staff

And yes, we ask for up to date technology all the time to make our lives 'easier' 'better' - but it often gets turned down flat. Its only in the last year that we have been given laptops - prior to that everything was on paper - and we had to buy our own pens! These laptops were all 'end of line stock' of course and are now so outdated that most modern applications don't work. We can't use Teams for example (even though most stuff during the COVID lock down was on Teams) and anything over 1MB on an email won't send.

But that's all by-the-by as at present i can't event charge the thing up because the charger cable is too expensive.

If you think I'm silent on this, you're wrong - i constantly moan at the senior management for improvements. Most of the money currently is going on recruitment as that's what the local public want. If we say we are channeling some of this for up-to-date technology such as AI - the public will tell us to stop being lazy and to use it on more 'bobbies on the beat'

So the chances of us getting one of these magic AI scanners is not going to happen anytime soon.

But genuinely - if you know of such a scanner then let me know a website or similar with its details and i will put it forward for their consideration.

But up until then, the problem is still going to exist.

Its not about being able to scratch your name into a wall - its the fact they have got the item on them in the first place that's the problem. My point being is that people sneak things into a cell for all sorts of reasons - they may at first just do it to scratch their name, but later when they get remanded, decide to use this on the themselves or others.

*So again, given the facts that have come out over the past few years on just how sexist and mysoginistic the police force are, why do you feel the need to shove your way into a group of women, discussing the impacts of such things on women to tell us all how wrong we are

Do you really think this is appropriate. Do you really think you are good a reading a room, judging reactions and understanding context. Or do you just barge in because you think its your right, without considering whether its appropriate? And Im not just referring to this thread, Ive seen you on others. Because again, this potentially makes you a bad police officer*

So I'm not entitled to put a point across in a discussion forum?

I'm not entitled to respond to posters who are asking me direct questions?

I'm not entitled to raise a point on something which i don't think is correct?

When I read something along the lines of "a person is found not guilty then therefore the other party must be lying" - I can't make a comment?

When people ask a question as to why police ask victims what they were wearing and can't initially understand its so we can spot them on any CCTV footage - I'm not allowed to explain this to them?

Next time I spot a thread like this - do you just want me to agree with every poster instead - would that be better?

The scanners that scan body cavities are being developed for airports not hospitals, as hospitals dont need them. If I actually thought you would do something useful with the info I would dig out the studies. And again, you are wrong. You clearly know very little about this area of technology yet you are still utterly convinced you somehow know more. You dont. They are based on xray technology but a different form which doesnt pose the same radiation risks, and are therefore safe enough to use on the general public, as some airports are starting to do.

And these arent AI scanners. You keep conflating everything and using it as a gotcha. I have discussed scanners that use AI to detect objects such as plastic guns. I have discussed scanners that can scan body cavities. I have never said they are the same thing. Telling me AI body cavity scanners dont exist might be true, but that doesnt make me wrong, you just mix technology together.

Interesting on the 'everything was on paper' Ive actually done a lot of work with the police over the years, they might not have had laptops but they certainly had computers, did your force really have no technology between say the 1980s and last year, thats unusual, if not impossible.

No @felix125 what I would love is for you not to come on threads where women are discussing rape and sexual assault with condesending comments like

'Ah well technically thats not rape thats sexual assault by penetration'
'Its only sexual assualt if the officers got off on it sexually and there is no proof of that'

Along with your comments about false accusations of rape which is such a male fucking comment

We want to discuss rape and sexual assault and you want to correct our fucking language

And you know what you can come on here and pick apart our comments, defend the police and do whatever you want you are right. But I wouldnt go on the black mumsnetters forum and pick apart their threads and tell them the microgressions they face arent 'technically rasism' and I wouldnt go on an lgbt forum and tell them the microagressions they face arent 'technically' homophobia. But you sure do like to spend a lot of time on the feminism forums telling women they are 'technically' wrong

I bet, though, even though people have commented more than a few times that his presence on this thread is unwelcome for many, : like a sex offender that just can't help himself Felix125 will be back to tell us how we're wimmining wrong.

My point being is that people sneak things into a cell for all sorts of reasons - they may at first just do it to scratch their name, but later when they get remanded, decide to use this on the themselves or others.

What does that have to do with Dr Duff's case? We know that the strip search was not ordered for her or anyone else's safety. We know the strip search was ordered to show her that "resistance is futile". We know this because it was recorded by police CCTV.

What part of this are you disagreeing with @felix125?

'Its only sexual assualt if the officers got off on it sexually and there is no proof of that

@Toomanyradishes, he was totally bullshitting on that. I posted the Met's definition of sexual assault, it is very different to @felix125's and Dr Duff's treatment definitely meets the threshold.

Along with your comments about false accusations of rape which is such a male fucking comment
We want to discuss rape and sexual assault and you want to correct our fucking language

More than that, he has used rape as a ridiculous analogy in a number of posts. This is a common police tactic when dealing with women.

@Toomanyradishes

The scanners that scan body cavities are being developed for airports not hospitals, as hospitals dont need them. If I actually thought you would do something useful with the info I would dig out the studies. And again, you are wrong. You clearly know very little about this area of technology yet you are still utterly convinced you somehow know more. You dont. They are based on xray technology but a different form which doesnt pose the same radiation risks, and are therefore safe enough to use on the general public, as some airports are starting to do.

And these arent AI scanners. You keep conflating everything and using it as a gotcha. I have discussed scanners that use AI to detect objects such as plastic guns. I have discussed scanners that can scan body cavities. I have never said they are the same thing. Telling me AI body cavity scanners dont exist might be true, but that doesnt make me wrong, you just mix technology together.

Interesting on the 'everything was on paper' Ive actually done a lot of work with the police over the years, they might not have had laptops but they certainly had computers, did your force really have no technology between say the 1980s and last year, thats unusual, if not impossible.

I never said we didn't have computers - i said we have only recently been given laptops.

Its difficult to get statements off people using a desk top computer which is stuck in the office. Likewise for DV risk assessments or missing from home reports or sudden death coroner reports - all of this had to be done on paper. If you have worked with police, then you will know all about PPN's and TWIF cases with CPS.

The scanners (what ever they may be classified as) sound wonderful, so if you let me have a website address for this developing technology. I note that you said 'developing' - so they do not actually exist yet.

But, if you just want to keep that info to yourself - i can't see how i can promote it or put any kind of case forward

So will this scanner be able to pick out Zopiclones and other such medication which has been plugged?

If you give me a link to the technology i will put it forward - like i said before - it will make our job a lot easier.

@ikeairgin

I bet, though, even though people have commented more than a few times that his presence on this thread is unwelcome for many, : like a sex offender that just can't help himself Felix125 will be back to tell us how we're wimmining wrong.

I am answering question & points raised by other posters. As i said a number of times, i think its rude not to reply to people asking me things

@TooBigForMyBoots

My point being is that people sneak things into a cell for all sorts of reasons - they may at first just do it to scratch their name, but later when they get remanded, decide to use this on the themselves or others.

What does that have to do with Dr Duff's case? We know that the strip search was not ordered for her or anyone else's safety. We know the strip search was ordered to show her that "resistance is futile". We know this because it was recorded by police CCTV.

What part of this are you disagreeing with @felix125?

Because when Dr Duff was standing in front of the custody sergeant and refusing any information - how can he risk assess her? What was he supposed to do at at that point - just put her in a cell and hope nothing goes wrong?

He can not fast forward time to see the end result of the court adjudication or the end result of her time in custody - he has to make a decision there and then. Where was it recorded on CCTV that the strip search was ordered as "resistance is futile"? I have said a number of times - the language used and the comments made were wrong and if the process which i described on page 6/7 for searching was stepped outside of and she was assaulted for no reason other than to effect the search - then it was wrong. The comments made of 'search her as though she is a terrorist' was wrong, and i have said this.

But we have been through all this before - skip back a few pages.

We have moved on to using scanners, which is a genuinely good point to consider and i need more information about them so i can put some sort of business case forward for out techie staff to look into. But Toomanyradishes seems reluctant to do this and prevent future situations like this.

You your self made a point about using other 'non police' staff to make a decision on strip searching - and again another good point which we can discuss if you would like to. But you seem reluctant to do this and just go over old stuff.

Well if there ever any doubt that the disgraceful behaviour of the police is ingrained in their very being then @Felix125 has proven that it is.

There's no hope-they just think they're right and will defend their actions and the actions of their colleagues to the very end. "Deny, deny, deny."

...and please don't feel the need to "put me right" you won't change my opinion of the police -it's based on my marriage to a prolific serial DV offender who worked. in CID and thought he could do anything he liked because he was in the police, and my interactions with his colleagues who were equally offensive. I also don't need you to answer my question-I haven't asked you anything.

Now DFOD and go and find another thread to harass.

@TooBigForMyBoots

'Its only sexual assualt if the officers got off on it sexually and there is no proof of that

@Toomanyradishes, he was totally bullshitting on that. I posted the Met's definition of sexual assault, it is very different to @felix125's and Dr Duff's treatment definitely meets the threshold.

Along with your comments about false accusations of rape which is such a male fucking comment
We want to discuss rape and sexual assault and you want to correct our fucking language

More than that, he has used rape as a ridiculous analogy in a number of posts. This is a common police tactic when dealing with women.

Stop quoting out of context.

False accusations were from another thread - stop mixing the two together. If you want to discuss that, open up the other thread and we'll discuss it on there.

For sexual assault - there has to be a sexual element to it. So for example, i could touch your hand and if it could be proven that i got a sexual thrill out of it, then its a sexual assault. But it doesn't follow that any hand touching is defined as sexual.

In this case it was part of a search - so unless the process which i described on page 6/7 for searching was stepped outside of and she was assaulted for no reason other than to effect the search then I can't see how it will be a sexual assault. Unless you know different - were you there?

The rape as a ridiculous analogy was used to show that just because a person is found not guilty, it doesn't follow that other person is lying - which you alluded to in a number of posts. My point being is, are you suggesting that you analogy is the same for that offence?

And you will need to explain your comment of This is a common police tactic when dealing with women.. Rape is a very serious crime with a low conviction rate for a number of reasons - but again, this was discussed on a different thread.

But Toomanyradishes seems reluctant to do this and prevent future situations like this

Oh my, its suddenly become my sole responsibility to stop strip searches being used! Once again its all a womans fault. Fuck you, like you would do anything with the information anyway.

Ive sent the suggestion to the police digital service as they are partnering with the police forces on digital innovation. A much better idea than sending it to someone who may or may not be an officer and certainly seems vested in justifying strip searches no matter what. So Ive done my bit thanks very much.

Your comment about me is disgusting, how dare you suggest I am reluctant to prevent strip searches. Classic DARVO in action