Men dominating physical space at music events

[Bluebell1234]

I was at a music gig last night. My (female) friend and I got there early and has a good spot about 3 rows back. It was standing not seated. Every time one of the more well known songs came on it was evident that the men were dominated all the physical space. It seemed to be about 90% males near the front and they would think nothing of shoving in front of two average sized (5ft 4) women blocking our view and ‘dancing’ or jumping all over the place without any concern that they could hurt someone. At one point I put my arm out to stop someone backing into me yet again and his mate said ‘he’s harmless you know’. This was infuriating as he clearly could easily cause me harm by standing on me or shoving me (not deliberately, just by not taking care not to) It seemed the only women there apart from us had male ‘protectors’ so they were safer from their space being invaded. My friend and I were dancing and enjoying ourselves too but managed to do this without taking up anybody else’s space.

I felt like contacting the venue to ask them what they are doing to stop men dominating the space but it seems pretty pointless. I’m sure most of the men were totally oblivious and wouldn’t have seen themselves as doing anything wrong. I ended up feeling that we had been quite reckless by trying to be near the front and would stay near the back next time. Am I being precious or is there anything to be done?

A friend and I were at an open air concert for Manic Street Preachers and have never had so many men try and grope us. It was horrible and I think one of them might have gone home with bite marks on his hand.

When I was younger I would enthusiastically dive in the mosh pit and give as good as I got. It was great fun. These days I don't feel like getting bruised so I stay back. Tbh, DH does the same.
It depends on the band, the gig, etc. Some acts have a more rowdy crowd than others.
You'll notice it's nearly all women right at the front leaning on the barriers.
Luckily I'm tall. A friend of mine who is 5ft just doesn't even bother trying to be able to see!
One of the worst gig experiences I've had was two women repeatedly shoving me in the back and telling me "you should let us in front of you, we're smaller than you". Fuck off, that's not how it works.

I went to a rock gig a couple of years ago and was standing. Found the same as you, men were barging me all over the place. I'm only 5ft 2. Luckily i could use dh and his huge mate as a human shield. But i objected to one big bloke ramming into me and he turned round and gave me such a nasty stare i didn't dare say anything else. Like he really hated me and would be happy to knock me out.

I remember a bloke at work talking about going to outdoor concerts & his girlfriend sitting on his shoulders. The idea that this might be a pain for people standing behind simply didn’t compute.

@Whatthechicken is right. When my DD was about 9 or 10 she got shoved over at the start of a junior parkrun by a couple of boys who wanted to line up at the front. They were taught a lesson though as the woman running it restarted the run and told the boys they could either go home or run with the tail runner so she knew they were following the rules and not endangering anyone else's safety.

My friend and I were dancing and enjoying ourselves too but managed to do this without taking up anybody else’s space.

How do you know that? You said the men were probably oblivious to what they were doing. Could the same be true of yourself?

@Puppylucky

I've been going to gigs all my adult life and I think crowd crush is part of the experience. I hate the idea of safe spaces and mandated areas - that's not what it's about. And as for complaining to the venue in the hope of getting a refund - insane. As someone said upstream if you want to be upfront then sharpen your elbows. Most men in that space are just gormless and drunk - and especially nowadays - will quickly back off if you reclaim your space. If you don't want that then stand at the back with the cool kids!

I do agree with this, most of the men at the bands I go to are drunk but harmless enough. When I elbow my way in front of them because I'm a foot shorter, they don't really mind. And I make space for short men too and get them to stand in front of the hulks because short men are just as deferential to them as women are.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

When I was younger I would enthusiastically dive in the mosh pit and give as good as I got. It was great fun. These days I don't feel like getting bruised so I stay back. Tbh, DH does the same. It depends on the band, the gig, etc. Some acts have a more rowdy crowd than others. You'll notice it's nearly all women right at the front leaning on the barriers. Luckily I'm tall. A friend of mine who is 5ft just doesn't even bother trying to be able to see! One of the worst gig experiences I've had was two women repeatedly shoving me in the back and telling me "you should let us in front of you, we're smaller than you". Fuck off, that's not how it works.

I agree with this, even though I am the five foot person at the sides.

Agree with the others saying it's all part of the experience. I love a good mosh pit and find sharp elbows and a good shove does wonders. Those who are bouncing around are fine being shoved as it's what's expected. Some of my best post gig experiences have been with people I've 'fought' in the pit. And in my experience men do apologise if they fall on you. I've always been picked back up and dusted off. There are plenty of other places to stand if you don't want to be a part of it, but don't ruin it for the rest of us!

I go to gigs regularly. I'm 5ft 1 and this is a massive issue.

At the last gig, a man, around 6ft 5 stood directly in front of me. I tapped him and he turned around, I pulled a "seriously?" style gesture and he did move. Then his 6ft plus friend pushed through and filled the space!

I like standing at gigs, but have just given in and purchased seats for a future gig.

The situation highlights the imbalance of power, same with walking "chicken" where many men asdume their right of way.

At gigs, I feel invisible. I have attended some gigs previously with a male friend, 6ft 5. His confidence was clear. He went where he wanted without any thought or fear, just barged through to where he decided to stand. Sums it up really.

DH is incredibly tall and has always been really really conscious of it and positions himself at the back of everywhere or slumps right down in seats to help the person behind him see. Lovely and considerate - but doesn't consider little short arse me now stuck at the back next to him!

A friend of mine who is 5ft just doesn't even bother trying to be able to see!

Yes, this is me now. Finally worked it out at nearly 50!

I'm about the same height as you @middleager and I agree it's a pain but on the other hand I use my invisibility to slither in front of the hulks and get a better view/position. Because I'm below their eyeline they don't see me coming!

I’m 5ft (and a historic rape victim). I hate going to these places for this reason. Men are colonists. They simply don’t see women at all. I am sick and tired of having to swerve because one blunders into my stationary space or into my very obvious trajectory because he’s far too busy and important or focused on his right to “have fun” at my expense. Don’t get me started on spilled drinks and “banter”…

I'm a lifelong gig and festival goer and actually, have a slightly different experience. I went to several long awaited gigs last year and was at the front and amongst men and women. Lots of dancing and moshing with fans who are rambunctious but courteous. I saw the Levellers in December and loved watching the mosh pit. It was a big tour playing the oldies and the die hard fans were going beserk together but helping each other out. Equal mix of men and women. I was there with a 14yr old so stood back and to the side a bit as it can be overwhelming if you're not used to it.

I do think if you want to stand and watch, you need to compromise. Other people want to dance and moshing is a thing all on its own.

I've also seen plenty of people call out bad behaviour eg dancing and shoving beyond the level of those around you, actual aggression, pushing to the front after turning up late etc.

I am not denying that it certainly happens but my experience is that the people who don't enjoy the front of a gig are the ones who want to stand still at the type of show where other people want to dance.

Certainly all gigs nowadays are v well staffed ime and they are hot on safety and call out anything inappropriate. I've had to lean over the barrier and ask staff to help out and usually, they're well able to spot anything untoward and step in quickly.

I happily take my children to festivals and we like to be at the front for our favourite artists. People are overwhelmingly lovely and protective of those smaller people who are joining in.

Maybe it's the type of music I like that makes it different.

@Puppylucky

I've been going to gigs all my adult life and I think crowd crush is part of the experience. I hate the idea of safe spaces and mandated areas - that's not what it's about. And as for complaining to the venue in the hope of getting a refund - insane. As someone said upstream if you want to be upfront then sharpen your elbows. Most men in that space are just gormless and drunk - and especially nowadays - will quickly back off if you reclaim your space. If you don't want that then stand at the back with the cool kids!

100% this.

Gig first timers who don't understand the ettiquette? Go and stand at the back if you like your personal space! Want to dance with being knocked about? Stand further back or at the sides.

The whole point of standing at the front is to almost be 'one' with the crowd. If you don't want that experience find the appropriate space in the crowd.

I can honestly say I find the whole thread bonkers and it would utterly destroy the experience of it to do differently. It would spell the end of standing gigs.

What EXACTLY is a 6'2" bloke supposed to do in the front of a gig? Or are you proposing they must stand a certain distance back. And they must never come into contact with a female? How about we have a girl section of the crowd and a boy section and then have height restricted areas within in that? Cos that wouldn't cost a fortune nor rui your evening when you can't stand next to your bf or your male friends... Really?

The reality is, there are unwritten rules on behaviour according to the location in the venue. Front - expect it to be rough. Side at front - slightly less rough and easy to escape. Mid way back - good view generally, lots of space to dance. Back - somewhere to drink and chat.

I always used to go to the front. People would try it on to get your space or push you out - often because they would see you as an easy target. You have to just tell them to fuck off or develop elbows. It soon stops. If people really are being dangerous or harassing you, tell security - they will give them warning if they are being a problem. I always got taken seriously. Security always looked out for it ime. Often it was worthwhile to be really nice to security before the gig and to be helpful if they wanted you to do something. Its also massively worth your time to chat to the people stood around you. Just random stuff or to comment about people who are being twats near you. It helps get others to look out for you.

It definitely was a stamina event to be at the front but that was part of it. You know that people will be jumping about and the crowd will sway. For the most part people are good humoured and will look out for each other as part of it. Because its about a common mutual experience of having a good time with lots of people.

I'm 5'1. Petite frame. Went to hundreds of gigs around the country ON MY OWN.

Honestly, it just sounds like your expectations are off and you need to find the right place in the crowd for what you want.

As for a refund? Are you on crack? Or just never been to a gig before?

What kind of band was it OP? The front 3 rows is the mosh pit in my world. If you don't want to mosh you stand further back.

I was at a set at a festival when they stopped playing altogether and refused to restart until the big blokes smashing around made space for the women and little folk. It was amazing to see, wish I could remember the bloody band name!

I find this and handle it in different ways.
One of the best gigs I went to, the women all befriended each other at the front and the men had to behave reasonably.
At another, a DJ set with a much younger crowd than I'm used to, I found it so much more respectful and conscious of personal space and it was an absolute joy to have space to dance and not feel like I was about to be barged plight of the way .

Generally at any gig I go to, the very front row will be girls who cling to the barriers, the next third of the space is the rough zone of mosh pits, then it’s the standing somewhat still zone, then the back is peaceful drinking space. You go wherever suits you. I favoured the mid zone. You generally get a better view from further back anyway…or at least, I do as a 5ft2 shortarse. Easier to see around people when you’re not right behind them. It’s gig etiquette more than a male or female thing in my opinion. If I wanted to get in the pit, there’s nobody stopping me!
The only time I have ever been hurt at a gig was when someone punched me…and that someone was a woman!

Friend got her foot broken by some twat jumping up and down to nirvana without a thought to how he impacted on others.

I think that this really is one of those issues where there it is very hard to have a right and wrong. Redtoothbrush's post is spot on... but on the other hand gigs are a perfect example of how minorities (women and disabled mainly) can be massively disadvantaged in practice despite in theory having just as much right as the men to be wherever they want in the venue. I think that this might be one of those issues where hard and fast rules simply cannot work and the compromise solution involves some people who detest all boisterousness accepting that they can never be near the front, and other people accepting that they have to make more effort to look out for those around them.

Mmm the last 2 gigs I went too were very female dominated and the behaviour was appalling. Gig one- me and sister at front next to barrier. Space next to us for maybe 1 more person. Group of 4 young women squeeze into space and push sideways so hard they knock me and my sister on crutches over. I have a go and they just stare at me and spread out so we totally lose our space. Event security didnt give a shit. We ended up having to stand 3 rows back when we had queued for 3 hours for that space
Next gig woman was pouring drinks down the back of people near the front to get them to move. Security didnt get involved until she punched 2 women in the face who refused to move from the front. Ive been going to gigs for over 35 years and its the worst behaviour ive ever seen.

@CoffeeWithCheese

DH is incredibly tall and has always been really really conscious of it and positions himself at the back of everywhere or slumps right down in seats to help the person behind him see. Lovely and considerate - but doesn't consider little short arse me now stuck at the back next to him!

Same here, Coffee, same here...

It's been so long now that when I went to a show with a female friend recently, I was genuinely astonished that she'd booked seats in the middle near the front, where we could see everything.