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Feminism: chat

FEMALE DR WHO DRIVING MEN TO CRIME

50 replies

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 25/11/2021 17:29

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59421259?at_medium=RSS&at_campaign=KARANGA

A Tory MP has linked young men turning to crime to women playing traditionally male roles in TV and film.

Nick Fletcher said "female replacements" in shows like Doctor Who were robbing boys of good role models.

The only characters they had to look up to were gangsters the Krays and Tommy Shelby from Peaky Blinders, he said.

"Is there any wonder we are seeing so many young men committing crime?," he told MPs taking part in a debate on International Men's Day.

OP posts:
LobsterNapkin · 25/11/2021 20:53

As a comment it seems silly at first blush, but it might be worth thinking about it.

Are there many shows with good male role models of the heroic type? There is a strong tendency for shows now to have much more morally ambiguous protagonists, so overall there is less already. Dr Who was somewhat unique in that he didn't tend to use violence to solve problems. But I am not really the target audience for that kind of tv so I'm not sure what all there is.

I don't think it's untrue that young people want characters they can look up to in that way.

daisyjgrey · 25/11/2021 21:08

@LobsterNapkin

As a comment it seems silly at first blush, but it might be worth thinking about it.

Are there many shows with good male role models of the heroic type? There is a strong tendency for shows now to have much more morally ambiguous protagonists, so overall there is less already. Dr Who was somewhat unique in that he didn't tend to use violence to solve problems. But I am not really the target audience for that kind of tv so I'm not sure what all there is.

I don't think it's untrue that young people want characters they can look up to in that way.

Hang on, so the previous 12 (I think?) Dr Who's were all male. Men still committed the majority of crime. Now there's a female one and suddenly it's her fault because there aren't any good role models for men?

LobsterNapkin · 25/11/2021 22:05

I'm not sure what your logic is there, daisyjay? The question is whether there are fewer current good role models for boys on tv at the moment. I don't imagine you can make some sort of direct link to crime.

LobsterNapkin · 25/11/2021 22:25

IN any case, these things usually produce terrible films and tv, so that is a good reason to avoid them.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 26/11/2021 07:25

m.imgur.com/lOc06y1

Nick Fletchers response

Wanderingstars4238 · 26/11/2021 07:42

I wholeheartedly agree, Findwen

JassyRadlett · 26/11/2021 07:52

@AlecTrevelyan006

m.imgur.com/lOc06y1

Nick Fletchers response

‘You have totally misunderstood me and misrepresented my position by assuming that I meant the words that came out of my mouth.’
GrandPrismatic · 26/11/2021 07:59

Well the most astonishing thing that I found in that article was the SNP response from Gavin Newland. First time I have agreed with an SNP MP (MSP?!) on anything ever. I’m sure he will get in trouble form SNP HQ for this

DontTellThemYourNamePike · 26/11/2021 09:33

Jeez, glad my DS's don't watch Dr Who. Can't have them smashing up my living room.

Triffid1 · 26/11/2021 09:58

The whole thing is beyond ridiculous and I 100% agree with a PP who pointed out that there are genuinely so many issues for men that it would be nice to address like why as a society we are still failing when it comes to spotting and dealing with men's mental health issues. Or the culture of toxic masculinity that is as detrimental to men as it is to women etc.

Those examples of franchises that have now included women are, in many cases, ones I've watched. I loved them before but I love them with women even more. I let DD watch endless ridiculous fan fiction type stuff on YouTube because to be honest, so much of it is done by girls and women for girls. And she loves it. Unlike when she watches Octonauts or so many other shows for children, which, while great, don't tend to include many girl leaders or, if they do, she's bossy and/or the only one.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/11/2021 10:21

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

This must be why there was a massive female-driven crimewave all the way from the beginning of recorded history up until about ten years ago, when we started getting role models.
True.

And, to be fair, turn on any modern drama on the TV/cinema and it's definitely and overwhelmingly women with the lead parts that actually drive the story forward. Hmm

Lostmyheart101 · 26/11/2021 10:45

His getting ripped apart on Twitter by everyone! Poor bloke, what an idiot!

StormTreader · 26/11/2021 10:49

Jodie has had at least a few male companions! Do they not count as male role models because they weren't the Biggest Boy?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 26/11/2021 10:59

@Findwen

There is a trend of replacing men with women in popular older franchises (Terminator, Star Wars, Dr Who, Ghostbusters, James Bond, Oceans and others already changed or in development now) - I think it is a poor choice.

It doesn't make the fans the originals very happy and women don't tend to flock to the new replacement since the original underlying themes were not orientated to resonate with a female audience. It's just lazy, cheap and makes few life long fans of the mangled changes. If you disagree, can you honestly name any of the gender flipped stories that will hold a place popular culture for a few decades ?

Rather than replace men with women in established stories, women should get their own entirely new stories - not be passed mens hand-me-downs and told it's feminist and empowering.

Whilst disagreeing with that tool in the article above I 100% agree with this.

Write new stuff. Create awesome new characters and have the balls to showcase diverse new talent. Copying and pasting what's already out there is lazy.

But yes - the OP. Bloody wimmin, look what you've made the men do Angry

TheWeeDonkey · 27/11/2021 09:33

OMFG, can you imagine if you'd voted for that guy?

TheWeeDonkey · 27/11/2021 09:35

And haven't we had the men's world cup and the Olympics this year?

Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink. 😭

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 27/11/2021 15:14

And a male Prime Minister! Surely he's one of the biggest role models going, especially in these difficult times. Plus he has the advantage of being real. It's weird how Nick seems to have completely overlooked Boris in his careful and thorough search for good male role models.

OP posts:
anniegun · 27/11/2021 15:21

He has just overtaken Nadine Dorries for the "most stupid thing an MP has said this week" award. So that's another win for the boys

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 27/11/2021 15:58

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

I never knew Jodie Whittaker was that powerful.

A new way to blame women for everything!

Tsk. It's the first rule.

THE RULES OF MISOGYNY

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

5th rule of misogyny: WATM! [What about the Men] Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.

7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.

8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it males men look bad.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

Snoozer11 · 28/11/2021 17:39

I thought the point he was making was more the attitude that it's wrong for these characters to be male and they need to be "fixed" by becoming women is the problem - i.e. making young boys feel guilt just for being boys and leading them to be disenchanted.

Which I can sort of understand.

I don't think changing the sex of established characters is an adequate replacement for creating string roles for women.

PerkingFaintly · 28/11/2021 19:13

@anniegun

He has just overtaken Nadine Dorries for the "most stupid thing an MP has said this week" award. So that's another win for the boys
But not a win for long...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59451874
Conservative MP Caroline Nokes has criticised Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries after she dismissed Ms Nokes' claim she was groped by the prime minister's father, Stanley Johnson.
Ms Dorries told the Daily Mail Mr Johnson was "a gentleman" and she didn't believe Ms Nokes' allegation.

FlatCheese · 28/11/2021 20:53

If he'd left off the bit about male characters being recast as female ones and just said that boys need positive role models, wouldn't that actually be a good point?

NewlyGranny · 28/11/2021 21:08

Just more evidence that some men want everything for themselves: everything! And women are not to allowed the tiniest share.

HazelCarbyFan · 30/11/2021 10:37

Are boys even watching TV these days? All the kids I see are watching Netflix and watching each other on social media anyway. The idea that if there’s not a man man man on the Tuesday night telly lineup then kids don’t see a role model is silly anyway - they’re not watching TV in the living room, they’re choosing shows online and Tik Tokking.

And aren’t there about a million Avenger movies out?

NoWireHangersEver · 30/11/2021 12:59

It's funny - I used to be on the same page as some of these politicians, but after investigating film history as a kind of hobby, I realised a lot of assumptions people make about 'representation' are wrong

Women were considered the main audience for Hollywood films (more spare time to visit the cinema) until the late 70s, men were placated with genre films (Western, gangster and spy movies, general action offcuts).

Plenty of excellent three-dimensional female characters in the most popular films - see any role played by Joan Crawford or Bette Davis, Scarlett O'Hara, etc. Hollywood used to favour outrageous funny women like Mae West and Lucille Ball for major roles. The Pre-Code (early 1930s) had a special focus on female stars. There was an entire influential genre of 'women's pictures' which often featured major names and were big studio investments

Even Hitchcock (who is supposed to be a huge misogynist) makes his female characters interesting with their own thoughts, feelings and motivations, rather than resigning them to nude set decoration. The men in his films tend to be naive, underdeveloped or evil

I think that truly interesting, three-dimensional and exciting characters have always been the preserve of women. But Hollywood's major investments are now action blockbusters and this means that a) all male characters are uninteresting as they're inherited directly from the B-movies of the past, which weren't written particularly well b) women are drawn into this paradigm as sex objects or cut-and-paste love interests, and get cut off from their heritage of unlikely feminist cinema. It's oppressive to various degrees for all involved

Film/TV industries are trying to solve this by just giving the women the uninteresting male roles, which will never satisfy. The whole thing is hollow. I think people act as if men have always had the best deal and the best role models in film/TV and this is only just being overturned now, when that's not entirely true from a historical perspective

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