Schools institutionally sexist?

[RobynNora]

Would be interested to know what people think of this, whether this aligns other's experience and if it bothers you on a day-to-day basis or not?

I was just reading an online chat about the asymmetries of 'Sir' and 'Miss' as titles in schools. Sir having much stronger connotations than Miss, which is a hangup from when women teachers were young and quit when they married. It's been discussed here before.

Someone else commented that people in the corporate world tend not to use marital titles, while most schools still use them, which seems outdated. And that in many schools, nobody uses the gender neutral Ms - especially at primary. Instead, the kids are effectively told which teachers are married or not, while all the men get to be gender neutral. Unfair!

I'm not fussed which titles people use in real life, but in a professional setting, isn't it weird to still use married titles? Won't very small kids think it's important to know if women are married or not and unimportant to know if a man is married or not?

What's more, the senior leadership team at our local primary is entirely male. Most classroom teachers are women. All the cleaners and catering staff without exception are women. It's never commented upon and I sometimes wonder if people don't see it.

I'm way more concerned about the recent reports of widespread sexual attacks by boys on girls in schools everywhere and that it's generally brushed under the carpet.

[quote RobynNora]@gardenlass I agree they’re not bothered. They’re also not bothered if every cleaner they encounter is a woman and every high ranking staff member is a fella, but what message is it all sending? And does it matter?[/quote]
Er, no. Why would it matter to a young child? It won't 'send them a message.' We don't need to expose them to adult, fairly recent perceptions of gender discrimination.

[quote RobynNora]@Hardybloodyhar I see your points but I think it relates to status. If we call all men Sir and all women Miss (which also happens to be an address term for a young female child) will they receive a tiny, subtle but sexist message that men are more important than women?[/quote]
The miss Mrs Ms Mr thing has been rumbling on for decades! In general. But just schools... So to focus on schools is strange.

Who calls young girls miss in day to day life? And you can be miss at 10, 30, 50, 90. It's not only for children!

Female surgeons were always miss. And male Mr. Certainly still when I was young. Don't know if changed now. But still. Something to look into OP?

When it comes to schools and girls I'd say-

Sexualised abuse from verbal to physical to rape

The issue with girls and sport around puberty

The unconscious assumptions around what boys and girls are like, what level of behaviour is acceptable for the sexes

Practice of disruptive boy with obedient/ hardworking child (often female)

The rules about going to toilet which seem to cause issues in many schools with girls and periods

Issues with girls traveling to and from school, at school gates home time, with dodgy men

That sort of stuff.

Any thoughts on those things OP?

@NiceGerbil it’s horrendous and for me the two matters are linked. All this insidious everyday sexism leads to male entitlement. I’m a mum of boys and I worry about raising them as good people who see women as equals. Most people dismiss my concerns and says it’ll be fine because I’m a good role model and responsible parent. But it seems arrogant to assume my parenting can override all the programming of living in an inherently sexist world - including the schools they attend.

@NiceGerbil I’d agree and would add access to space, ways of talking to girls/boys, unequal classroom talk time and all sorts of issues around stereotype threat.

But titles and address terms do matter and I mention them because they’re so ingrained
that people don’t notice the sexism anymore or thinks they’re a big deal. But kids pick up on everything.

I’d also disagree and say that Miss is still used for young girls on birthday cards, at the doctors, ‘little miss’ books etc. People have also moved away from marital terms in corporate life (‘meet my secretary, Mrs X’ hasn’t been uttered since around 1979) I’m sorry to say I think schools are lagging behind.

All the kids at my school use Miss. You'd have to really work hard to get them to say Mrs or Ms. I'm a Mrs, but the children call me Miss X.
The male teachers at my school are both Mr X and Mr Y. Can't say I've ever heard sir being used at primary level.

Sir had lost the status in my mind though in a school setting. It's what kids call male teachers in school instead of Mr X.

That is very annoying about the all male SLT though. I just hope it is all deserved on their ability to do the job! I do remember being told years ago that if you turned up to a teaching interview to find yourself against a male interviewee, just walk out as they would get it. Not sure how true this is though.

The titles thing is a long running societal thing though.

Any subconscious impact for children will be totally miniscule compared to all the other messages they get.

About which children are likely to enjoy which subjects. And I mean. Loads of children when small have really strange ideas. Where do they get them? You see threads on here a lot with eg. Mum is a doctor 5yo insists doctors are male. Boys massively dismissive/rejecting of anything related to girls / femininity for years. I once had an 8yo boy refuse to eat off a plate because it had pink bits on. I mean.. that's extreme imo! The massive pink/ blue in the shops. The stuff in secondary with girls uniforms. It's just... Massive.

In real life, mine anyway. Titles are rarely used. Of all the things. I think that in general titles are a topic that is a. One that is bizarrely really polarised and fighty b. Societal not school specific and c. Yes the little things matter but for me I'm just meh personally.

@NiceGerbil yes, probably best not to focus on titles. It’s polarised alright! I can bang on a tedious amount about ms being a neutral term for all women and for some reason I get really stuck on this particular topic, but yes, I do see there’s plenty of more pressing women’s issues to focus on!

The bizarre thing about ms. Is that loads of people seem to honestly believe it means divorced...!?!

At our boys' secondary school it was sir/ma'am. Both unfamiliar before they got there, so not loaded at at all. Those were just the honorifics due to teachers, specifically, at their school. It was nice and utterly non gender weighted 🙂

Nb- non selective, community comprehensive

@RobynNora

Just had an even better thought. Let’s make all male teachers be Master X or Mr X at work so we know if they’re married or not too! Least it’s fair then.

might not be too welcome to the unmarried son of the bates family.

I think schools need to bring in Sir and Ma'am

I am Ms Piece at school and many older colleagues go by and. Interestingly several of our young, vocally feminist, members of staff go by Miss.

Personally Miss/Sir doesn't bother me and generally to the kids it's just a name as opposed to anything deeper. It's certainly never bothered me.

well i guess junior schools are small, and most lessons taken by the class teacher, so children know the names of the relevant teacher, mr white or mrs smith.
but secondaries are vast, and they may be expected to pay attn to unknown teachers/staff in the corridors.
so to be respectful they say yes sir, no miss, i'm going to science lab.
and titles has persisted in schools rather than other workplaces because most teachers insist on the distinction between children and adults being clearly marked, ie it is hierarchical.

@Pieceofpurplesky that’s interesting. Do you ask the young feminists why not or is that too personal a question? I went through a phase of occasionally calling myself Miss because it seemed nicer or gentler or something. I’m a proud Ms though and unfailingly get pissed off with younger me when Boots send me Advantage card statement addressed to Miss!

I taught in a school that tried to address the Sir/Miss thing by having female teachers be called “Ma’am” (like the Queen). The head’s argument was that that’s what female bosses are called in the police force so why not in schools. I always liked it more than “Miss”, felt more on a level with “Sir” to me.

I’m old, been married 13 years, still get miss, I write it for the kids. Formally I’m ms or superram. I’d say miss and sir are equitable in school and relates to my role rather than marital status.

IME it's a bit like the term feminist- most women/ girls even if strong feminist views don't want to be associated with the overwhelmingly negative associations pushed so hard for decades! (Not sure how libfem types get round that!).

The whole angry man hating hairy Millie tant stuff.

My guess is it's a mix of-

• we've come a long way titles type thing is trivial and not as issue now
• ms just not liked. Pronunciation etc usually cited but the fact is it still says 'hello I'm a feminist' is not very appealing for reasons just given
• been told means divorced
• just not thought about it

One thing though.

If it's Mr/miss for all no surname then personally not fussed. But no one calls a woman just Mrs do they! I mean it's not sir and missus ever surely.

If title last name then I mean. That's their name. You can't get well insist on women staying miss/being ms surname.. (old or new surname?). If they go from miss Smith to Mrs Jones then that's their name.

I don't get ma'am. Reminds me of USA and the Queen. On James bond with m it sounded like 'mum'. It's just not a word in common use here really is it. I'm not even sure how to pronounce it!

And it's short for madam. Which has one meaning of woman who runs a brothel. Madam is a very obsolete word generally and that's the main meaning for me (Cynthia Payne comes to mind!).

Anyway if sir for men shouldn't it be dame? Or lady?

I mean just thinking like I say for me meh.

I often get called mum and dad too….

oh yes, remember the dame schools.
well not literally, i mean learning about them.
one for the master, and one for the dame, and one for the little boy who lives down the lane.
was it wool, sacks of, from the black sheep ?
now there's a topic for discussion.

Huh?

We have a school called dame X after the woman who set it up.

@LoveGrooveDanceParty

What's more, the senior leadership team at our local primary is entirely male.

There are not enough 🙄 in the world for this.

Because, of course, not ONE of the women on the teaching staff could possibly be considered good enough to be LT material. Have you questioned it, OP? How are they reflecting the diverse needs of their staff and school community in their LT?

I’m not in the UK, so ‘Ms’ is widespread here, and certainly many women teachers use it.

My DD’s primary school don’t use titles at all - just first names, including for the Principal (a woman).

DS goes to a private school, and the teachers are referred to as ‘Sir’ and ‘miss’, and like you, it doesn’t sit comfortably with me. One demands respect. The other, not so much.

That rather depends on the Miss/Mrs, doesn't it?

@RobynNora bizarrely the one who is constantly telling everyone who will listen that she's a feminist, hates JK Rowling etc. says she wants to be Miss so people will know when she has got married (she's changing her name too). I think sometimes she is a very woke feminist! The others just got put as miss by default and aren't that bothered. I think it's a generational thing - they all have their pronouns in social media bios and we are Ms!

I've never come across "Sir" and "Miss". At my state primary and secondary school teachers were Mr Brown or Mrs Black or Miss White. At my son's private primary and secondary it was the same apart from the ones who were Dr. There might have been Ms as well but all teachers were called title plus surname.