Thoughts on this?

[Keke94LND]

Hey all, wondering what your thoughts are on this? I read it and .. I get it, but something about it makes me feel funny... I guess I'm just a bit confused by the point of it, as surely it is again focussing on the behaviours of women? I.e you're more likely to be sexually harassed if you are assertive.. all women are harassed at some point in their lives regardless of their actions and to be honest the majority of times I've been sexually harassed has been when I've just been walking down the street by random men, it had nothing to do with how I acted or whether or not I came across as assertive or not, and everything to do with the fact that I am.. female

To be honest I think maybe what I don't like about it is the categorisation of women, i.e (assertive vs not assertive women) I just don't think it's helpful

I guess I'm just a bit confused by the point of it, as surely it is again focussing on the behaviours of women? I.e you're more likely to be sexually harassed if you are assertive

I don't think that is the point they are making. The fact assertive women are more likely to be harassed shows that it's about a desire for power over women as an assertive woman could be seen as more of a threat to male power than a compliant woman.

@OchonAgusOchonOh

I guess I'm just a bit confused by the point of it, as surely it is again focussing on the behaviours of women? I.e you're more likely to be sexually harassed if you are assertive

I don't think that is the point they are making. The fact assertive women are more likely to be harassed shows that it's about a desire for power over women as an assertive woman could be seen as more of a threat to male power than a compliant woman.

Perhaps I am just reading too much into it.. trying to find flaws haha

I think you're both right - the point the tweet was making was about what is observed to happen, and what that implies about the why. It's an interesting finding.

However, it's all too likely to be interpreted by some as 'well there you are then, if you don't want to be harassed be less assertive'. Which obviously stinks.

Misogyny is always women’s fault, isn’t it.
“Women! Stop being assertive, to avoid harassment!”
Never: “Men! Stop harassing women!”.

Isn't he just saying that assertive women are a threat to male dominance, so men will try to overpower them? He's not saying the solution is to become weak, is he?

I agree with him. I was harassed at work multiple times by the same men because i stood up for myself, spoke my mind and was vocal about my opinions. Those men wanted to drag me down and for me to shut up because they didn't like to be challenged. Women who were quiet and didn't bother to speak up were not targeted the way i was. It was about power, and about them showing me that ultimately, they could say or do whatever they wanted without impunity because they'd been reported in the past and nothing had happened due to the culture of misogyny.

@ErrolTheDragon

I think you're both right - the point the tweet was making was about what is observed to happen, and what that implies about the why. It's an interesting finding.

However, it's all too likely to be interpreted by some as 'well there you are then, if you don't want to be harassed be less assertive'. Which obviously stinks.

However, it's all too likely to be interpreted by some as 'well there you are then, if you don't want to be harassed be less assertive'. Which obviously stinks.

It is only likely to be interpreted that way by those who are misogynistic anyway. They are the same type of people who claim rape victims were asking for it by their dress or the victim of domestic violence shouldn't have riled him up etc.

The point made in the tweet that the problem is the normalisation of control over women does, I think, make it clear that the data is being used to show that those who are a threat to male control are more likely to be harassed.

I wonder how they find that out. About work.

So many factors.

I have read that successful women are more likely to experience DV, in news a couple times.

There trying to say it's about putting women in their place. Often the conscious motive.

Others though it's just because they can. Which is power all the same.

A better example might be the treatment women who are politicians journalists etc get.

I don't take it to read so don't be xyz.

And on the street I think assertive makes no difference probably. Or if you look like a woman who is confident it might put some off. Dunno.

I wouldn't get the hump at what they wrote. Maybe could have been put better. The message it's about power is true.

The ones who fuck with successful women/ assertive women it's about putting her in her place. Reminding her who is in charge really.

Resentment. Who does she think she is type thing.

@HollowTalk

Isn't he just saying that assertive women are a threat to male dominance, so men will try to overpower them? He's not saying the solution is to become weak, is he?

No i don't think that he is saying we should become weak at all, I think that possibly some women could think well maybe I shouldn't be assertive then though, but mainly I just don't think we should separate women into separate groups, we are women, all types of women with all types of different characteristics, but we all experience the same thing, so whilst I guess in a way it is good to understand why men treat us this way, I'm not sure when discussing why men do it, women's actions should be the reason

@Feelslikealot

I agree with him. I was harassed at work multiple times by the same men because i stood up for myself, spoke my mind and was vocal about my opinions. Those men wanted to drag me down and for me to shut up because they didn't like to be challenged. Women who were quiet and didn't bother to speak up were not targeted the way i was. It was about power, and about them showing me that ultimately, they could say or do whatever they wanted without impunity because they'd been reported in the past and nothing had happened due to the culture of misogyny.

I'm sorry you experienced that, you shouldn't have. I'm not sure I like the sentence 'women who were quiet and didn't bother to speak up' though.. speaking up can be difficult for a lot of women for an array of different reasons and it isn't just because they can't be arsed

mainly I just don't think we should separate women into separate groups, we are women, all types of women with all types of different characteristics, but we all experience the same thing, so whilst I guess in a way it is good to understand why men treat us this way, I'm not sure when discussing why men do it, women's actions should be the reason

So it might be better to focus on the male choice to harass particular women rather than the women's choice to be assertive?
i.e.
Sexual harassment isn't driven by a desire for women. It's motivated by a desire for power over women.

Data: Men repeatedly target women who don't conform to their idea of how women should act as a way to punish them.

The problem isn't self-control, it's a culture that normalizes[rewards?] men trying to control women.

Hmm. Maybe that should be Data: Men repeatedly choose to harass...

I'm sorry you experienced that, you shouldn't have. I'm not sure I like the sentence 'women who were quiet and didn't bother to speak up' though.. speaking up can be difficult for a lot of women for an array of different reasons and it isn't just because they can't be arsed

Er yeah I'm aware of that. In this case they knew there was no point speaking up as they'd get shouted down by men, so they stopped bothering. It's the same outcome. Still no women speaking in meetings apart from me.

It’s our own fault, surely we all should understand now.
The men have explained it often enough.

I didn't post this earlier as thought it wouldn't go down well.

I am very dubious about the assertive women at work thing. Would have been better to use the stats about DV and financially successful women.

My earlier thoughts on the work thing were-

In work I think for both sexes confidence and assertiveness increases as you gain experience, get promoted, get older.

I was way way less assertive at work than i am now. I don't think that's uncommon. It's not taking that into account. What about the women who are harrassed and don't feel confident/ that their voice will be heard so never mention it?

I also suspect that if reported. Women higher up the ranks will have it taken more seriously than others. The they are less likely to be asked if they're sure, to try and sort it themselves first etc. Esp if the harrasser/s are higher up the chain. Trainee v male boss is just not generally going to be treated the same as female boss v junior, or boss v women only a couple of grades down.

And there are other factors -

I've met a fair few women esp the more senior. Who do I'm one of the lads, there's no need for feminism don't like it, encouraging crude / lewd conversations etc. Men are generally terrified of them Unless really bad they would not take loads of stuff as harrassment. But as banter.

Women I've had who are v feminine, always done up nicely. Hair done full makep pretty dress etc and importantly a very smiley, accomodating, friendly demeanor and an approach of sort of being a bit cautious with who they open up to.

IME usually in roles that fit being very smiley yet actually quite wary. My friends like this have tended to be PAs, front of house roles etc.

Men tend to IME see them as lovely, not notice that they don't say much about themselves, and crass behaviour etc is not done when they are near.

If you become trusted then IME they are targeted by the real creeps. I know one who was stalked. Friends found on SM and contacted, private life interfered with. One who had a few men when alone say really upsetting personal things. One who had really grossly obscene things said to her.

I don’t know the research that’s being referred to in the tweets, but it does specifically say that it rules out reporting bias. We’d need to find the actual research to have a meaningful conversation about how valid it’s findings are.

Just googled the study referred to. psycnet.apa.org/record/2007-03270-011

Here's the abstract:
"In 3 studies, the author tested 2 competing views of sexual harassment: (a) It is motivated primarily by sexual desire and, therefore, is directed at women who meet feminine ideals, and (b) it is motivated primarily by a desire to punish gender-role deviants and, therefore, is directed at women who violate feminine ideals. Study 1 included male and female college students (N = 175) and showed that women with relatively masculine personalities (e.g., assertive, dominant, and independent) experienced the most sexual harassment. Study 2 (N = 134) showed that this effect was not because women with relatively masculine personalities were more likely than others to negatively evaluate potentially harassing scenarios. Study 3 included male and female employees at 5 organizations (N = 238) and showed that women in male-dominated organizations were harassed more than women in female-dominated organizations, and that women in male-dominated organizations who had relatively masculine personalities were sexually harassed the most. "

@NumberTheory

I don’t know the research that’s being referred to in the tweets, but it does specifically say that it rules out reporting bias. We’d need to find the actual research to have a meaningful conversation about how valid it’s findings are.

It's in reference to the book in the bit below. Not read it. A book is a better format for this topic than a tweet...

I'm in a very male dominated environment.

The parameters and questions etc would be useful plus how they assessed 'masciline personalities' ?! Also their defn sexual harrassment. And the industries etc.

I mean ok that's what they found.

Isn't anything like my experiences though!

@NiceGerbil

I'm in a very male dominated environment.

The parameters and questions etc would be useful plus how they assessed 'masciline personalities' ?! Also their defn sexual harrassment. And the industries etc.

I mean ok that's what they found.

Isn't anything like my experiences though!

Yes! I'd really like to know what it's based on. The author of the book is a professor at the University of British Columbia. Presumably the stuff she's talking about has come from some of her research if anyone wants to look (don't mean to just dump on people but I don't have time to look it up right now and don't have access to paid for journals):

sociology.ubc.ca/profile/jennifer-berdahl/

Thanks, may get round to looking not sure!

I tend to be a little skeptical of these kinds of claims. It's really difficult to measure things like who is more assertive, or even who gets the most non-criminal harassment in a workplace. So right off the bat, I have some doubts about what he says is the basis of his hypothesis.

But even if you take it as true, is his hypothesis the only one that might explain it? Not really. Maybe less assertive women are less likely to perceive the same behaviour as harassing. Or something else.

And who says that all sexual harassment comes from the same kinds of motivations or behaviour patterns? I wouldn't say that about something like bullying, so why harrassment?

Yes I essentially said that upthread but more long winded.

Maybe the book explains it all. Maybe not. No idea.

The man's tweet is poorly framed and lacks insight.