Feminism: chat
Boris Johnson does not support making misogyny a hate crime
Glasstabletop · 05/10/2021 09:22
Glasstabletop · 05/10/2021 10:55
@XiXimXerJinping
It is far too similar to 'thought crimes' and far too open to abuse.
Can you expand on this?
For example do you think spray painting "Gaz Love Claire" on a set of shutters should be treated the same way as "(Slur) Go Home"?
SorryAuntLydia · 05/10/2021 11:36
@XiXimXerJinping
It is far too similar to 'thought crimes' and far too open to abuse.
I agree.
@Glasstabletop you ask do you think spray painting "Gaz Love Claire" on a set of shutters should be treated the same way as "(Slur) Go Home"?
I do.
I think the crime is the crime. The motivation is only helpful in terms of rehabilitation, not in terms of punishment and justice.
If someone punches me in the face, it is irrelevant whether they do it because they think I’m Muslim or a woman or a lesbian. I’ve still been punched. They’ve still punched me. I don’t care if they are a nazi or a regular misogynist or just confused. I still want them to face justice.
If for example, I rob someone’s house (I won’t) and they happen to be gay, will my robbery be aggravated by assumed hatred of targeting a property owned by someone gay? It’s absurd and unhelpful. The focus becomes probing the motivation of the perpetrator, rather than assessing the actual crime. And it becomes a slippery slope towards thought crimes.
So whilst I’m disappointed at the message this sends to women, I’m hoping it’s just a signal that hate crime legislation is being reviewed?
QuentinBunbury · 05/10/2021 12:16
Oh I'm so cross. And all the people saying "I'm voting Conservative cos they know what a woman is" - yes they do know and they also make it clear what that woman's place is.
The police workload is more important than women's safety. Can't be a hate crime- too much work, lets keep the status quo.
Daily Mash nailed it earlier this week:
"We’ve been working really hard on this. We put our heads together and tried our absolute best to make no real structural changes and this is what we came up with. So now we can all move on."
Alongside their advice to women, the Met is also asking people of colour worried about systematic biases from the police if they have tried being white instead.
www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/women-can-avoid-attacks-by-rogue-police-officers-by-not-existing-advises-met-police-20211001212670
QuentinBunbury · 05/10/2021 12:20
If for example, I rob someone’s house (I won’t) and they happen to be gay, will my robbery be aggravated by assumed hatred of targeting a property owned by someone gay? thats either ignorance of hate crimes or wilful strawmanning
It would be a hate crime if there was reason to think you robbed the house because they were gay. And that's because its not fair that gay people disproportionately are victims of crime because some people hate them.
Similarly, it should be the same level of crime to shout sexist abuse at a woman in the street as it is to shout homophobic abuse at a gay couple or racist abuse at a black person. At the moment it isn't. Women can be abused with impunity.
Felix125 · 05/10/2021 12:45
@QuentinBunbury
It would be a hate crime if there was reason to think you robbed the house because they were gay. And that's because its not fair that gay people disproportionately are victims of crime because some people hate them.
Similarly, it should be the same level of crime to shout sexist abuse at a woman in the street as it is to shout homophobic abuse at a gay couple or racist abuse at a black person. At the moment it isn't. Women can be abused with impunity.
I agree
Although shouting abuse at women in the street (or anyone else for that matter) is covered by Public Order Laws
I would argue that if its deliberately done to the victim, because she is a woman - then a hate crime has occurred. So it will be something like 'misogyny aggravated public order' - similar to 'racially aggravated public order'. That will be an aggravating factor to the crime and a tougher punishment.
OR
Do we say that if an individual is abused because of who they are, then that should be a hate crime too? So to flip the example around, if a woman shouts sexist abuse at a man, would that be a hate crime too? An elderly man shouting abuse at kids playing on his street?
Upsielazy · 05/10/2021 12:48
Mr Johnson said recruiting more female officers would also help to change the culture within forces.
Ah yes of course, women should sort out the culture of misogyny within the police, its always us isn't it who need to sort it. No party is overly fussed on women.
FKATondelayo · 05/10/2021 12:50
@XiXimXerJinping
It is far too similar to 'thought crimes' and far too open to abuse.
I agree with this. We already have laws against rape, sexual assault, upskirting, harassment, domestic violence, coercive control - how often are they used? Less than 2% of reported rapes result in charges - not convictions, charges. Men can literally murder women and be out in a few years under 'sex gone wrong'.
Look at the news cycle of the last few days. Do you seriously believe police are going to take misogyny seriously as a hate crime?
Upsielazy · 05/10/2021 12:50
@Starlitexpress
Misgendering is already considered a hate crime, just crimes against women who gives a fuck. As said already, the system would buckle on the sheer amount of calls they would receive so easier to sweep it under the rug.
FKATondelayo · 05/10/2021 12:56
Look at all the murdered women who contacted the police many many many times to tell them 'this man will kill me' and what happens? The police do nothing. The woman gets killed. Sometimes she gets prosecuted for wasting their time and THEN she gets killed.
Do we really think they will take they are going to come out for 'misogyny'.
Sorry I am angry today.
Upsielazy · 05/10/2021 13:12
@FKATondelayo
Do we really think they will take they are going to come out for 'misogyny'.
Sorry I am angry today.
Its heartbreaking and infuriating in equal measure isn't it. So many cases it turns out that the woman reported the man beforehand and nothing was done, or women have phoned about men flashing etc and nothing gets done and it escalates.
BananaBlue · 05/10/2021 13:17
Oh I'm so cross. And all the people saying "I'm voting Conservative cos they know what a woman is" - yes they do know and they also make it clear what that woman's place is.
This. I understand Labour v women is problematic, but I think the Tories are a much greater danger to the lives and wellbeing of women.
Babdoc · 05/10/2021 13:18
Bit of a side issue to the main point of the threaf, but flashing needs to be recognised as a gateway crime to serious sexual assault. It is not harmless, laughable, something to be shrugged off. If only Couzens had been arrested and suspended for flashing staff at MacDonalds a few days earlier, Sarah would still be alive.
QuentinBunbury · 05/10/2021 14:20
Although shouting abuse at women in the street (or anyone else for that matter) is covered by Public Order Laws
Yes. But that isn't enforced in the same way as racist/homophobic abuse.
By not making misogyny a hate crime when e.g. racism/homophobia are, we are essentially saying hatred of women isn't as serious as hatred of other groups.
Then is it any surprise that misogyny flourishes?
TimeToDateAgain · 05/10/2021 17:49
The limitations and potential difficulties with hate crimes were identified at the time of McPherson report.
Making misogyny a hate crime would only be useful if identifying hate crimes is effective in preventing them. I would like to see some evidence that hate crime legislation has made a measurable impact on the incidence or prevalence of these wretched events. If not, where and how would the resources be invested in a more effective way?
www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/sites/crimeandjustice.org.uk/files/09627250208553454.pdf
journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0269758019837798
Libertaire · 05/10/2021 18:51
I agree with him.
The authoritarian, censorious illiberal thought police have already been allowed far too much power in this country. Restrictions on what people are allowed to think, write, believe and say are already unacceptably draconian in what was once a free society.
We need more freedom of thought , speech and expression not less.
LobsterNapkin · 05/10/2021 20:13
I don't support hate crime legislation. It creates a hierarchy of crime that I don't think can be justified. Is it worse to beat someone up because they looked at you funny, are gay, or because they are old? I'd say actually all are personally and socially awful and that is why it's a crime.
It also gets very close to thought crimes and we can see how that could play out very clearly. "Hate incident" here we come.
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