Feminism: chat
Tactics to deal with sexism at work in a 'woke' company
Reachingtheendofmytether · 15/09/2021 18:35
I work for a big company, of the sort that has diversity sessions regularly and highly paid people to make sure we're being appropriately inclusive.
As the user name suggests, I'm coming to the end of my ability to cope with constant (indirect) sexism. Basically all 'seniors' are male and all 'juniors' bar one are female. The male junior is included in management meetings. We're not talking chance numbers here - it's a medium sized team (less than 20 more than 10) with a roughly 50:50 split between seniors and juniors.
We get told they've noticed and they're working on it, but not what they're doing. We get justification for each and every individual situation (eg, "it's not because he's male, it's because he does X" or "it's a historic issue because of when people joined" or "well you wouldn't want [poorly performing woman] to be involved in this decision would you") and of course it makes "sense" on an individual basis, but it's clearly indirect sexism when you look at the bigger picture.
I don't really know how to deal with it. It's mentally exhausting being pissed off about it. I don't think I have the energy or am willing to risk my career to fight this. At the same time I don't think I can comfortably just sit back and accept that this is just life and it's shit.
Any tactics for maintaining a middle ground? I actually really like my day job but I'm feeling like I'm going to be forced to quit.
AssassinatedBeauty · 15/09/2021 20:27
That sounds shit, and like they're paying (expensively lip service to "diversity" without actually having to do anything substantially different. Is there a women's group within the "diversity" people, or a specific person who is tasked with "gender equality"? If so, what do they think about it all?
Could you start a women's group, for solidarity if nothing else?
Are there opportunities for promotion or are the current seniors pretty fossilised in their roles?
DivingBoardInGuernsey · 15/09/2021 22:25
I guess in the long term a team where all the juniors are female, has the potential to be a team of female leaders as that cohort progresses. Maybe 
I think as it's a big company, I'd ask for HR/L&D to insert themselves into the team development planning, so that the current male seniors are helped to ensure an equitable access to career development / training (I.e. prevent the excuse that the male junior is the only one with X skill). They evidently need a kick to prevent them only promoting in their own image.
Reachingtheendofmytether · 16/09/2021 04:59
Thanks everyone.
That part about the juniors getting more senior over time is the argument the men are using, time will sort it. It won't work - the seniors will just be more senior (unless they leave and it's more likely to be the women who leave because of this and natural attrition as many are getting to the age where they're starting families and we're a long hours role). The structural issue will still be there - when I'm a senior I will still report to my current boss, a senior, and not to the department head. That's not the case for any man. The department head only includes his direct reports (well the male ones) in decision making. Plus the odd additional male senior. Interestingly there is one new male 'junior' coming in who won't report to the department head and I'm interested if he ends up having more of a role in management or not.
HR are involved. They have no teeth and showed us a video about not labeling people that didn't have any women in it. They misrepresented figures so it looked like less of an issue, talked about mentorship schemes and when we complained that all the mentors were male said it was on us to ensure women stepped up to be mentors. Basically, they left me in no doubt that they support the company and the company doesn't want to do more than pay lip service. Maybe I need to take it to non local HR (but that would be a career killer and I have worked bloody hard to be where I am).
I appreciate I keep saying 'thanks but it won't work' and I do appreciate the thoughts and suggestions. I think to some extent I'm letting off steam as I come to terms with the fact that NiceGerbil is right. I really like my job and whilst I could easily get another one there's nothing this interesting out there (and I'd be giving up a lot of money in stock options - well over 100k).
LavenderAskew · 16/09/2021 05:29
I think the problem is they aren't inclusive. Companies like yours are called Dinos (Diverse in name only.) So pretty much they make a song and dance about having staff of different sex, race, gender, physical ability etc but do no actual (or rarely) include anyone other than the traditional straight white man in decision making or even promotions.
Divisity without inclusion means nothing (I've seen it described as being invited to the party but not asked to dance).
Saying all that I don't know what you can feasibly do, it's those in power that drive change and your company's power don't want to just look like they are. Those without power who try to make a difference general do need to be prepared to lose something.
NumberTheory · 16/09/2021 05:31
NiceGerbil has the answer. In your exit interview you could say mainly nice things but add in that the sexism in the organization meant you knew there was no future for you there and it's really sad. Which, if enough women do it, may lead to change in many years time.
The other possibility is to try and be the one who plays the male game, find the least resistant most senior man to mentor you, be "blokey" to the extent you can, try to get the in even if it feels like selling out and then drag other women up after you once you have some power. That's what happened all over the place 30 odd years ago and is the way many places started to open up senior positions to women.
But it's slow even when it works and it probably fails more than it works. It's generally not fun. And it doesn't really address the main issue which is that the company is happy to have a large number of sexist men in senior positions who will squander talent and under deliver because they don't have the ability to see past their own stereotypes.
Reachingtheendofmytether · 16/09/2021 06:09
Thanks. To be fair on the company as a whole, it's an issue which is unique to my team and office. Using a (non-true) example, I'm in finance for Facebook in London. Finance globally is ok in terms of women leaders (not 50:50 but not terrible and better than the norm for in-house finance roles). My Department Head is actually one of only two male reports to his boss.
Finance in Major City has the issue and the Major City office as a whole as well. It does reflect a bias against women in senior roles across Major City as a whole but this is far worse than is normal for my profession, even in Major City. Unfortunately there are no other Finance jobs without leaving Major City or I'd just switch to another team.
It's also specifically a woman issue. I think majority of team is non-white.
(It's not Facebook or Finance of course but it is that much type of big name international company and in a job role that normally attracts a reasonable number of senior women).
I could try and play the male game. I've dragged myself up multiple times before but this is the first time I've faced this sort of thing so blatantly in the DINO environment (I like that term!). I'm used to the more blatent 'make me a sandwich' type sexism, which is easier because you can actually challenge it as it's so obvious.
I need to either find a way to get over this or move. CV's out there of course but nothing interesting has bitten yet.
NiceGerbil · 17/09/2021 03:42
@Reachingtheendofmytether
That part about the juniors getting more senior over time is the argument the men are using, time will sort it. It won't work - the seniors will just be more senior (unless they leave and it's more likely to be the women who leave because of this and natural attrition as many are getting to the age where they're starting families and we're a long hours role). The structural issue will still be there - when I'm a senior I will still report to my current boss, a senior, and not to the department head. That's not the case for any man. The department head only includes his direct reports (well the male ones) in decision making. Plus the odd additional male senior. Interestingly there is one new male 'junior' coming in who won't report to the department head and I'm interested if he ends up having more of a role in management or not.
HR are involved. They have no teeth and showed us a video about not labeling people that didn't have any women in it. They misrepresented figures so it looked like less of an issue, talked about mentorship schemes and when we complained that all the mentors were male said it was on us to ensure women stepped up to be mentors. Basically, they left me in no doubt that they support the company and the company doesn't want to do more than pay lip service. Maybe I need to take it to non local HR (but that would be a career killer and I have worked bloody hard to be where I am).
I appreciate I keep saying 'thanks but it won't work' and I do appreciate the thoughts and suggestions. I think to some extent I'm letting off steam as I come to terms with the fact that NiceGerbil is right. I really like my job and whilst I could easily get another one there's nothing this interesting out there (and I'd be giving up a lot of money in stock options - well over 100k).
You must be able to keep some of what you've put into the ? Share scheme surely?! That's bonkers.
Yes leave. There's no point fighting. People/ you have tried and they give you bullshit. They won't do anything and it will eat at you.
Get another job. Go for more money given you've been kept back. Include the annual stock option thing in annual package.
You will enjoy another job in same thing different company.
Fuck them off it's not worth it.
Reachingtheendofmytether · 17/09/2021 04:41
Thanks again.
My stock options are worth a lot (and 'finance' at this company pays well, even as a junior) but they vest over time and they're end-loaded. I keep what I have now but that's a tiny proportion of the whole amount so I'd be giving up 100k+ that are due to come in stages over the next two years. Technically I haven't earned them yet of course but that doesn't make it easier. This is how they keep people 🤣
At the end of the day it's only money though and if I move to an equivalent (eg finance at Facebook to finance at Amazon) then I'd probably get the same package. Just need to wait until there's a suitable job!
The finance boss in head office is currently giving the 'time will sort it' argument and was directly involved in the hiring process for the seniors (and the juniors for that matter). However, his team has plenty of women seniors. I'm confident that he will want to sort it when he appreciates how bad it really is - apart from anything else, at some point someone's going to notice this team has a worse balance than the board and that will look bad on head office boss. Our team is worse than the tech team!
I'd only want to raise it to him seriously if I had another job to go to though. That's my next step I think. A proper search. Then I'll move when I get something I actually want to do. If I were in head office I'd move sideways but no option locally and so I'd have to relocate the family, which I'm not prepared to do.
I don't know if there's a pay gap. Probably but unlikely with me as I bargained very hard and am paid more than normal for my position. I know I'm paid more than one of the other women (I was told when I was hired to be careful as my salary would be sensitive). Of course this means they've successfully gotten us to a position where we're not discussing salaries to know how we compare. I don't think that was intentional for me and I do genuinely think I am paid well for my grade. Of course there are no men at my grade so I don't know whether they'd have been paid the same!
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