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Feminism: chat

What would benefit women most?

59 replies

Annalouisa · 12/09/2021 23:17

There have been some interesting feminist campaigns recently - from #metoo to everyone's invited and Reclaim the Streets following Sarah Everard's murder. All three campaigns had some initial impact and enjoyed five minutes in the public eye. It got me thinking: what grassroots campaign could be organised that would actually make this a better place for women, or make women better equipped to 'live strong'. I had some initial ideas, but would be keen to have other people's perspectives, please:

a) self-defence bootcamps for women
b) a women's university (there are two women-only colleges in the UK, but there are Oxbridge ones, so not accessible to most, and no women's colleges at all in Europe)
c) a coaching, mentoring or MBA type programme specifically targeted at female middle managers, to get them to want to step up to senior positions so they can then have a bigger say in corporate settings and provide role models for the next generation of women
d) work placement scheme/careers talks targeting 14-16 year old girls to encourage them to consider all the various career options available to them, and provide a first placement in that career, so they get a taste and can use that experience in UCAS applications, apprenticeship applications etc.
e) financial planning workshops for women, covering all those things that are specific to women: best financial savings/investments products to save up money for maternity leave(s) or saving up for IVF, the need to have some sort of job even if it's at minimum wage to keep up national insurance, the basics around mortgages, working freelance/contracting, setting up your own business and so on... I'm stunned by the number of women on MN but also IRL who make themselves utterly financially dependent on men, usually after having a child without being married, with no financial safety net or Plan B. Sad
f) something totally different - whatever that may be.

By the way, I know some people say cheaper childcare would make a huge different to women's ability to 'lean in' Hmm but if you think about, childcare is already provided by poorly paid women, not sure how paying them less than minimum wage would advance the feminist cause, unless of course the government started paying (more) for childcare directly to the nursery nurses/childminders, increasing their wages while parents paid less or nothing. But that seems rather utopian.

So which of the above would make the biggest difference to "advance the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes", in your view?

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AssassinatedBeauty · 12/09/2021 23:48

Childcare costs in Scandinavian countries is typically very much lower than in the UK, whilst being of good quality. It's properly funded by the govt so workers are paid properly. I don't think it's ridiculously utopian to think we could improve childcare in the UK along those lines. It's a question of what's seen as a priority and as valuable to society as a whole.

Regarding your point (c), I don't think that women middle managers don't want to step up to higher level management, I think there's probably still structural and cultural blocks that hinder them more than their own ambition.

In terms of your point (d), I think you'd need to get in before the age of 14-16 to change attitudes to different career choices. There is evidence that attitudes to STEM type careers drop off and lessen from primary school age onwards. Having said that, anything that shows the reality of a range of careers that are usually male dominated to girls would be a good thing.

In terms of self defence, point (a), classes are great for women's physical confidence and well being. But in terms of actual self defence, you have to be very well practised and confident to be able to apply the techniques in an unexpected and dangerous situation. So for me it's not going to address the issue of male violence, rather the well-being of women instead.

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OneEpisode · 12/09/2021 23:59

Would some relationships education be useful? I hear teenagers talk about the person they fancy as their partner, (and I know this -is-helpful to same sex attracted people) but sex and partnership are different things…

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irresistibleoverwhelm · 13/09/2021 00:08

Restoring access to legal aid in family law / separation / divorce cases. Also in sex and maternity discrimination employment cases.

Legal aid in this country was silently absolutely slashed by the Tories since 2010 - almost no-one qualifies for it now. It used to be a mark of a civilised society that poor people could get access to the law on fair terms. A society where only the rich can access the legal system is one in which women are also disproportionately disadvantaged.

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NiceGerbil · 13/09/2021 00:13

For me -i assume we're talking about the UK only?

  • A root and branch reform of the police handling of sexual violence reports. Following up on things they see as trivial that are known to be precursors to more serious crime. Serious challenge of rape myths - campaigns in the past on various things have managed to shift societal thinking. Press to have firm rules on reporting. Schools unis duty to report. Serious consideration of what can be done around the reporting, charging, prosecuting rates. Harsher penalties so many where there's a dead woman and a derisory prison term. And for DV women keep being killed after multiple reports to police.


That sort of thing.
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NiceGerbil · 13/09/2021 00:14

I believe that if it's taken seriously etc then that in itself would result in a shift in how as a society this stuff is seen.

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/09/2021 02:43

I like (d) best of your options, though I agree with pp that starting earlier would be even better.

Reclaiming women’s single-sex rights, however, is the biggest issue right now. If any man who calls himself a woman can claim all the rights women fought for, that undermines all the other options anyway.

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PileOfBooks · 13/09/2021 02:57

I think sex based rights is by far the biggest thing as all our freedoms are just disappearing with that. Without that pretty much all the suggestions will be meaningless.

Apart from that (!) Legal aid. A friend isngoing through a divorce where her ex wont play ball/messing around about finances and contact and my friend (on tax credits) has no means of support. It hit me then how blinking unfair that is. I didnt realise how innaccessible it was.

Part time working / return to working after a gap to become a norm. So many well qualified women step off their careers in their 30s with no idea of the impact that might have long term. That affects so many.

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BellsaRinging · 13/09/2021 03:14

I think the answer is different depending on whether you mean the whole world or just this country. If the UK I tend to agree with @irresistibleoverwhelm that it's access to free legal advice; I would combine that with financial and legal classes at school. Childcare is a close second, perhaps obligatory maternity and paternity leave of three months and an aggressive child support agency?
Worldwide I think it has to be access to health care, and specifically safe and effective contraception and abortion, childbirth and postnatal care.

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nosafeguardingadults · 13/09/2021 03:21

Safe homes. Women can't be safe without having safe homes to live in. I have to stay at risk of being killed by violent partner cos nowhere safe to go after refuge. Relationship education thing think no point cos most women know if unsafe even if they don't admit to themselves but just they know can't afford to live on own.

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CornishPastyDownUnder · 13/09/2021 03:27

womens trade training colleges..a basic push on this as a real option which is in demand&pays well from say,year6
for trades/apprenticeships -my dd thought aboutvit at our local private yr10 thru12 trade school..wants to do architecture so has gone the uni route-but they were having more &more girls completing after doing a year of trades tasters..women are so underrepresented in this.

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Annalouisa · 13/09/2021 09:06

Interesting - the lack of access to legal aid wasn't on my radar at all - and yes, @PileOfBooks is quite right to point out any gains for women are eroded if anyone can be one at the 'drop of a hat'.

Playing devil's advocate, could it be argued it would be better to offer extensive outside court arbitration/counselling or similar to help couples come to an agreement that doesn't involve courts?

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PileOfBooks · 13/09/2021 09:09

I dont know enough about the system to know how it all works. They were offered mediation and he just was "too busy" and refused to do the work/turn up. So again the woman misses out. Something with some clout however it works would be good! X

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Igmum · 13/09/2021 09:15

All good ideas and would help, but fundamentally all of these seek to change the individual women but leave the system standing untouched. The problem is not that women are deficient but that the system is wrong.

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TheWeeDonkey · 13/09/2021 10:35

@Igmum

All good ideas and would help, but fundamentally all of these seek to change the individual women but leave the system standing untouched. The problem is not that women are deficient but that the system is wrong.

That's a fair point. This is a bit extreme but I was watching one of those crime channel documentaries yesterday and they were about men who kill their ex partners and on there was a police man who made it very clear that he thought to victim was to blame as she didn't make a clean break with the man.

Anyone who's spent more that 5 minutes on the relationship board will know how complex coercive relationships are.

I think authorities should have more training about the psychological effects of domestic abuse and control.
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Wtfdoipick · 13/09/2021 10:46

c) a coaching, mentoring or MBA type programme specifically targeted at female middle managers, to get them to want to step up to senior positions so they can then have a bigger say in corporate settings and provide role models for the next generation of women

My issue is that this is putting the onus and responsibility on women, saying they are responsible for the glass ceiling and this is blatantly not the case. A woman can want to step up but be unable to do so due to men keeping her down. It's not women who need tackling and re-educating it's men.

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TooWicked · 13/09/2021 10:53

c) a coaching, mentoring or MBA type programme specifically targeted at female middle managers, to get them to want to step up to senior positions so they can then have a bigger say in corporate settings and provide role models for the next generation of women

My old workplace tried to set up something like this. The main problem? Their definition of ‘woman’.

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CuntAmongstThePigeons · 13/09/2021 10:59

I think at the moment it's definitely fighting to retain our sex based rights, language etc.

Other than that I think education around sex, relationship, pornography. We really need legal protection from the terrible harms extreme pornography is creating in our society. Particularly for women and children.

Better education in the authorities, police for example as someone upthread said. Also a more connected database of predators, the wonderful woman who wrote "Men who hate women" said there's a clear link between dv and later terrorist behaviour.

Also I think the value of single sex education cannot be underestimated. Research has shown girls learn better in single sex yet boys don't. More often than not girls are sacrificed to make teaching boys easier. I went to an all girls secondary school and it was incredible. I think going through your most formative years without the influence of boys was amazing for me.

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lazylinguist · 13/09/2021 11:00

fundamentally all of these seek to change the individual women but leave the system standing untouched

That was my initial reaction too. It's all very well to want to empower women, but doing it by saying 'Women - we can't change men or do anything about their behaviour, or change the system to prevent them from having unfair advantages, so instead here's how you can change yourselves' feels a bit depressing.

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Mumoftwoinprimary · 13/09/2021 11:24

Make the CMS a system with teeth. Teeth like that of a rabid dog. What proportion of people don’t pay their council tax? Practically none because they very quickly add late payments, drag you to court and can even put you in prison. (First indication we had of dementia in my 93 year old grandmother - a court summons!)

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Thelnebriati · 13/09/2021 20:22

With £4 billion owed to mothers in child support, I'd change the way that child support is collected and distributed to remove the ability of abusive men to force their children to grow up in poverty. The State should pay the mother, and then collect the money at source. The two should not be linked so that women are not penalised by men who refuse to pay.

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Annalouisa · 13/09/2021 21:44

Wow - £4 billion owed to mothers in child support? You'd think the state would have an interest in getting that sorted - presumably women who don't get the child support that's owed to them are unable/less able to pay for childcare, and therefore more likely to be reliant on state support/universal credit? Is it really not collected by bailiffs etc.? Why nor? And who would we have to lobby to get it sorted? I see so many petitions on 38degrees, I'd start one if I knew who to address it to - I'm guessing Vicky Ford, children and families minister (Conservative MP for Chelmsford).

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PlanDeRaccordement · 13/09/2021 22:01

the need to have some sort of job even if it's at minimum wage to keep up national insurance,

This only applies when your DC are age 12 and older. So long as you claim child benefit, you get NI credit towards state pension the same as if you were working. Even if your partner earns over threshold, you should still claim child benefit and either decline the money or pay it back come tax time just so you get the NI credits. .

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mswales · 13/09/2021 22:03

These are all great ideas but just address the symptoms of the oppressive system rather than the system itself.

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PlanDeRaccordement · 13/09/2021 22:12

a) self-defence bootcamps for women
Everyone should learn self-defence/a martial art. Good for control of anger and violent impulses. Problem is culturally in the West it’s not encouraged for girls.

b) a women's university No! That’s what the Taliban are doing. Segregated education is never equal.

c) a coaching, mentoring or MBA type programme specifically targeted at female middle managers
No, women are already better educated than men. It’s not a lack of qualifications holding us back, but sexism. I think men should be coached on how to work for a female boss.

d) work placement scheme/careers talks targeting 14-16 year old girls I think this is already done?

e) financial planning workshops for women,
I’d rather see current financial planning courses be inclusive and educate men and women on the financial issues that disproportionately affect women.

But as far as what would do the most, that’s a debate we don’t need to have. It’s a waste of time to argue over which idea is best. We need champions for all ideas and to pursue them all at once.

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Durbeyfield · 13/09/2021 22:18

From your suggestions, OP - option e.
Economic/financial independence is the only way forwards for women, in reality.

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