If the Afghan army had been made up entirely of women, would the Taliban have succeeded?

[dameofdilemma]

Along with millions of others, I’m wondering why the Afghan army didn’t fight back (given they outnumbered the Taliban and were, on paper at least, better resourced).

I’ve read three separate interviews in the Guardian with Afghan women in Kabul - all have cited Afghan men in Kabul (not Taliban, Afghan) as jeering, joking, sneering at the plight of Afghan women under the Taliban regime.

Maybe its what most men in Kabul wanted and they could see the advantages of suppressing women.
I mean, lots of Western men wouldn’t mind wifey at home doing as she’s told, with no financial independence or social support.

[NiceGerbil]

@PicsInRed

The Yazidi female army did us all proud so...maybe not.

Then again, it often comes down to leadership. The national army leadership fucked right off and left a military body with no head, and it's not really a shock that the headless body then fell down.

Did us proud?

Who is us?

At least they fucking fought. Because they knew what was in store.

Bought and sold in markets. Raped, gang raped. One woman set herself on fire to disfigure herself in the hope it would stop the rape

Girls seen as viable for sex as soon as pubic hair starts growing.

For my girls that was 8. EIGHT. To be raped all the time.

What are you thinking even writing that?

It's one of the worst things I've seen on here and I've been here a very long time.

Have some respect and common decency fgs.

[NiceGerbil]

Iraq-

'Some 10 000 Yazidis fled to the Shengal mountains in a death march in which many, especially children, died of hunger, thirst and exhaustion. This year [2015] on the same day, the Yazidis marched in the Shengal mountains again. But this time in a protest to vow that nothing will ever be the same again.

Last year, the Iraqi Kurdish peshmerga of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP) promised the people to guarantee Shengal’s safety, but ran away without warning when IS attacked, not even leaving arms behind for people to defend themselves. Instead, it was the guerrilla of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), as well as the the Kurdish People’s Defense Units (YPG) and its women’s brigade (YPJ) from Rojava, who – in spite of carrying just Kalashnikovs and being only a handful of fighters – opened a corridor to Rojava, rescuing 10 000 people.'

[NiceGerbil]

Why?

'Captured women are treated as sex slaves or spoils of war, some are driven to suicide. Women and girls who convert to Islam are sold as brides, those who refuse to convert are tortured, raped and eventually murdered. Babies born in the prison where the women are held are taken from their mothers to an unknown fate.[214][215] Nadia Murad, a Yazidi human rights activist and 2018 Nobel Peace Prize winner, was kidnapped and used as a sex slave by the ISIL in 2014.[216] In October 2014, the United Nations reported that more than 5,000 Yazidis had been murdered and 5,000 to 7,000 (mostly women and children) had been abducted by ISIL.[217] ISIS has, in their digital magazine Dabiq, explicitly claimed religious justification for enslaving Yazidi women.[218] In December 2014, Amnesty International published a report.[219][220] Despite the oppression Yazidis' women have sustained, they have appeared on the news as examples of retaliation. They have received training and taken positions at the frontlines of the fighting, making up about a third of the Kurd–Yazidi coalition forces, and have distinguished themselves as soldiers.['

[NiceGerbil]

I'm sure we all know what captured women and girls were subjected to.

So again I would say.

'PicsInRed

The Yazidi female army did us all proud so...maybe not.'

Right. Seriously. That's an appalling post. Have some compassion and respect. Or not. As it goes.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

The Afghan army had no technical support, no resupply, no food and no wages. How the hell could they have put up a defence?

Women wouldn't have done any better.

Yep, also this.
I think this is quite a silly, wishful thinking post to be honest.
Whatever we think of the attitudes of Afhgan men, they don't want their wives and daughters dead or as slaves.
Suggesting they didn't put up a fight because they wanted that to happen is ridiculous and offensive.

[LobsterNapkin]

I think this is quite a silly, wishful thinking post to be honest.
Whatever we think of the attitudes of Afhgan men, they don't want their wives and daughters dead or as slaves.
Suggesting they didn't put up a fight because they wanted that to happen is ridiculous and offensive.

It comes from this tendency to polarized thinking that says, people who think differently than me must be evil. Therefor Muslim men in a country like Afghanistan,, who might well have different views about the roles of the sexes than most westerners, actually hate all women, hate their wives and daughters, and would be happy to see them abused.

[Collidascope]

Fgs.
Loads of men love their wives. They love their children.
They want their daughters educated. Able to have a career. They don't want their wives who have careers to be reduced to property.
They don't want to know that if they die as only man their families if no male are screwed.
They don't want to worry their teen daughter will think fuck you and go out without a male relative/ talk to a boy outside the family. And be executed for it.

I didn't say that all men in Afghanistan will be glad to see women put back in their place. Nor did I imply it seeing as I don't believe that. Those quotes are from an Afgan woman. You're naive if you think there is no support for women having their rights removed.

[Mango1982]

dameofdilemma

Because the US withdrew air support so keep up

A few months ago the us with drew air support then the experts to fix the Afghans own planes

It got so bad the Afghan army were having zoom calls with the us Air Force to get help with fixing their planes


Please don’t delude yourself women women would not be more able to fight another male army or are we back to the TRA argument 🤷‍♀️Women are just as strong as men 😂

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

You're naive if you think there is no support for women having their rights removed.

Why such binary thinking? Oh, it's the internet.
It's not a case of either all Afhgan men want to keep the Taliban out and preserve women's rights or all Afhgam men want to support the Taliban and have women's rights removed.
Of course there is support, I don't think anybody has said there isn't, but that doesn't mean all Afhgan men support it.

[NiceGerbil]

There are a fair few men in 'the West' who would like to have women's rights removed.

Some of them have gone out and murdered because of their beliefs.

In plenty of religious communities again in these countries women are heavily controlled, have a defined role, have to wear certain attire.

Agree with dey this goodies/ baddies approach is incredibly simplistic.

[Collidascope]

There are a fair few men in 'the West' who would like to have women's rights removed.

Yes, and I made that point in my original post...
"I do agree though that a lot of men are probably pretty happy to see women put back in their place, as probably a lot would be over here"
I'm not sure who is being accused of creating a goodies/baddies narrative.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

I can see the OP’s point. Women have a lot more to lose. They experienced hell on earth last time the Taliban ruled Afghanistan. Many would probably rather be dead than be plunged back into that.

But sadly, their desperation would not give them much chance of beating a well-funded bunch of misogynists who think they’ll go to a sex predator’s heaven if they die in battle.

God help the Afghans, and especially the women. Their former allies aren’t going to help.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

@thelegohooverer

I vaguely remember reading about female soldiers in China and how the fighting was all the more ferocious if the enemy realised they were fighting women - a combination of the shame of losing to women and the lust of brutalising and raping them. I can’t remember the specific conflict as I blocked a lot of it out. But no, I don’t believe that a women’s army would have been more successful against the Taliban.

Mao had whole squads of women. They were extremely happy to volunteer as their lives at home were pretty bloody awful. On the long march he 'collected' women from villages along the route. Suddenly they were part of an army where they were treated fairly well.

But you're right, they were trained to fight silently so that the enemy didn't find out they were women.

[CBUK2K2]

@dameofdilemma Can you provide a source for your rather inflammatory claim that lots of men want their partners locked in a kitchen and beholden to them pleases?

[CBUK2K2]

On average men are more aggressive than women, if you pick a man and woman at random 60% of the time the man will be more aggressive.

However the big differences are when you get to the outliers, if you look at the 10% most aggressive people in society they are almost all men. This is a big part of why prisons are full of men and hold relatively few women.

The other factor is physical strength, men are (on average) noticeably stronger than women. Hence men and women don't compete in mixed sports.

Much of the world laughs at the fact the west is keen to put women in font line combat positions for these very reasons. We've gone so far as to rig entrance requirements for military service in their favour.

That's not to say there aren't lots of military roles women cant beat men at, its just that combat roles arent one of them.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I've shot a fair amount and been told more than once women tend to be better shots.

Women are also better at endurance running and swimming for example and can manage in less food and resources.

Punch-ups, which I accept men are better at, aren't a huge feature of modern warfare. And many forces, including China, the Viet Cong and others have had women on the front line. The only famous warrior woman in Britain is Boudicca. They are loads around the world.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

www.bbc.com/news/world-49284389

Is war more like an endurance race or a fight? Depends on the conflict.

[LobsterNapkin]

It's not so much a matter of punch ups. Weight is a real factor - despite women's performances in endurance running, most women struggle to handle the same weights as men, especially over distance. When I was in the military, the tests where you saw real disparities tended to include things like lifting sandbags off the ground into a truck for a certain amount of time, or shoveling gravel, or carrying another person over a distance. Women were less likely to complete them and more likely to be injured.

And walking and running while carrying heavy things and doing heavy work are still a big part of being in the combat arms.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

More so in a modern army like the UK or US. Very heavy equipment and lots of it. But an AK47, some ammo and some dried rice like the guerrilla armies of the world carry? Less so.

I'm not saying there's no effect of sex. My DH could kick my arse with both hands tied behind his back. But laughing at the idea of female soldiers does rather smack of not knowing your history. French and Jewish resistance (and current Israeli army), Kurds, Chinese and so on. Women can be effective guerrilla and resistance fighters and have been for thousands of years.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

You really have no idea of just how offensive your post is, do you?

[ididitsocanyou]

Was musing over this the other day, about using women in front line combat as a war strategy. Not in the context of Afghanistan, however, just generally. Currently, a country trains and arms it’s men and the women are sitting ducks. That’s leaving half the population in an extremely vulnerable position and the enemy can take advantage of this. If ALL adults are trained in warfare then surely that would provide a massive competitive advantage. I know Israel does this. I don’t think Israel has ever been in a situation whereby it’s female soldiers have been called to front line combat, however, as their war is air strikes across borders with Palestine rather than army to army.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

@MrsSkylerWhite

You really have no idea of just how offensive your post is, do you?

Me or the OP?

[LobsterNapkin]

@MrsTerryPratchett

More so in a modern army like the UK or US. Very heavy equipment and lots of it. But an AK47, some ammo and some dried rice like the guerrilla armies of the world carry? Less so.

I'm not saying there's no effect of sex. My DH could kick my arse with both hands tied behind his back. But laughing at the idea of female soldiers does rather smack of not knowing your history. French and Jewish resistance (and current Israeli army), Kurds, Chinese and so on. Women can be effective guerrilla and resistance fighters and have been for thousands of years.

Yes, though I think it's to the point that it's situations where it's everyone to the mat where you most often see a lot of women engaged in combat. Or situations where including them is intended to engage everyone in a nationalistic enterprise and create a certain kind of citizen, or a population with a reserve set of skills and attitudes.