Feminism: chat
"Speak Up" Why women talk less than men in public.
Wbeezer · 02/08/2021 20:41
Interesting programme on Radio 4 today at 11am. Mary Ann Seighart explores why women don't speak up in public and how women are sidelined in debates and meeting and girls in the classroom. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ydx0
I found it very interesting, especially about female and male socialisation around talking.
ArabellaScott · 03/08/2021 09:02
Sidelined? Surely not. I mean, we have Mumsnet! And feminists have this whole board where we can discuss anything we like, it's not like if we mention certain topics monitors will pounce on us and insist we are forced away into a hidden corner.
Anyway, thanks, OP, looks interesting.
RedToothBrush · 03/08/2021 09:03
I have just fallen put with some one because of the lack of respect and listening he does.
Over a number of years he's bullied me, belittled me and rode roughshot to ignore me within our circle of friends (and the volunteer stuff we do).
I hit a point which was a red line. And said no more.
He has form for doing this but my circle haven't challenged him where they should have (including DH) and in the interim I've been the primary target because I'm essentially the one with 'the lowest social status' in the group and a woman. My friends all know what a wanker he can be and I've tolerated it for the sake of the group.
Its really knocked my confidence and I've been incredibly depressed about it all since it happened because its damaged relationships with others i care about.
Its stopped me wanting to be involved with things previously and it will stop me going forward.
I basically feel beated by a grind of put downs, undermining and unwillingness to acknowledge my skills and where i have greater understanding of a subject both professionally and through personal campaigning.
He's a dick. He's also a borough Councillor. He's textbook.
Wbeezer · 03/08/2021 09:28
Theres a mention in the programme about groups acknowledging male expertise but not registering female expertise.
Another insight that depressed me was that boys in the classroom have "wing men" that enable them to dominate conversations but girls don't tend to support other girls speaking in the same way (explains a lot about my lack of popularity in high school).
SmokedDuck · 03/08/2021 12:58
One of the things I've found most frustrating as a woman in a discussion in large groups is just that when I speak up, people often can't really hear me. I have a quiet voice and almost feel like I'm shouting with a larger group of people. It's fine in a formal speaking setting, where others are all focused on me, but not so great in an informal setting where you need to interject. It's a problem I haven't found a solution to and I know that as a result I often don't interject when I have something to say.
That being said - I worked for many years in a very male-dominated industry, where male approaches to discussion were the norm. I found tit useful to watch how those differed from the way I tended to approach discussions. There were some things I found less useful about the male approach, but there were also some that had real advantages. One was being much more direct about points being made and just being more confident about statements I made, rather than trying to circle around a point, or looking to others for support of what I was saying.
I really think the origins of male and female speech differences have to do with differences in how groups of men and women navigate social relationships and hierarchies, which anthropologists tell us are not the same. I don't know that this is something that could be very easily changed. It's always worth trying to incalculate respect for others and listening and people can improve on this, but it's also very worthwhile to consider how our own approach appears to those around us and to adapt to our audience. Sometime it's more successful than others - I've never really been able to be good at women's small talk and anyone who knows me well would say so - but men and women can both pick up some good speech strategies from each other.
Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/08/2021 13:43
I went to an all school girls school & when I went to uni I was taken aback at how the men just assumed it was ok to talk over me & dominate the conversation
Possibly because I’d been to an all girls school with no boys to take over conversations, it never occurred to me I should be the one to shut up, they were interrupting me so they could shut the fuck up
And for that I was labelled stroppy, difficult, bolshie etc
Plus ca change
Toomuchtodoo · 03/08/2021 13:50
This has happened to me during mainly men meetings
They talk over me and don't listen
Even if I have first hand knowledge about a subject and they know i do, i get about 3 words in and they ignore and carry on talking. Sometimes one or tw have even
turned their backs to me.
They don't value what women have to say.
Pig ignorant fuxkers
It's mainly older men who do this.
Toomuchtodoo · 03/08/2021 14:00
@RedToothBrush
Over a number of years he's bullied me, belittled me and rode roughshot to ignore me within our circle of friends (and the volunteer stuff we do).
I hit a point which was a red line. And said no more.
He has form for doing this but my circle haven't challenged him where they should have (including DH) and in the interim I've been the primary target because I'm essentially the one with 'the lowest social status' in the group and a woman. My friends all know what a wanker he can be and I've tolerated it for the sake of the group.
Its really knocked my confidence and I've been incredibly depressed about it all since it happened because its damaged relationships with others i care about.
Its stopped me wanting to be involved with things previously and it will stop me going forward.
I basically feel beated by a grind of put downs, undermining and unwillingness to acknowledge my skills and where i have greater understanding of a subject both professionally and through personal campaigning.
He's a dick. He's also a borough Councillor. He's textbook.
Male Councillors are notoriously bad for this.
The job seems to attract a certain type of pompous sense of self important types of man. Ime.
Abitofalark · 03/08/2021 14:14
It was a very good programme with insights and analysis based on research into group structure, behaviour and dynamics in both work and school settings: boys demand and get more attention and outspoken or leading ones are supported in their behaviour by other boys - who hasn't noticed this with men as well?
Can't say it's not disappointing for women and girls to listen to this; and depressing even, to realise that this is 40 years on from when Dale Spender wrote her book "Manmade Language'' about male dominance in speech, yet even now we're told that it takes something like 80% women in a group for the behaviour to change. 50 / 50 in the House of Commons wouldn't even cut it.
BlithePilgrim · 03/08/2021 14:27
@Theeyeballsinthesky
Possibly because I’d been to an all girls school with no boys to take over conversations, it never occurred to me I should be the one to shut up, they were interrupting me so they could shut the fuck up
And for that I was labelled stroppy, difficult, bolshie etc
Plus ca change
I got that from my two male teachers at school! Bear in mind, I wasn’t interrupting or being in any way rude, I was simply not letting them talk over me, or misrepresent my views. My religion teacher said I ‘needed to learn to be less aggressive.’
He was fired for looking up girls’ uniforms.
Guineapigbridge · 05/08/2021 00:44
Also it really fucks me off that I have over twenty fucking years of relevant experience and people STILL assume I've got nothing useful to say!!! Fucking self-important men around me that maintain a veneer of knowledge but actually, if you scrape the surface, don't know shit!!!
SmokedDuck · 05/08/2021 01:12
@Guineapigbridge
Is this in a group setting, or just the two of you?
I've found it useful to watch in situations like this to see how other people make it work. If your boss does the same to everyone you might be out of luck, but if others manage to get their point in, what do they do? Just barge in when he takes a breath, use some sort of body language, etc?
Also, if you have a quieter voice, which a lot of women do, you may have to speak up a lot more than you realise to be heard to be interjecting, especially if he is a guy who gets a real head of momentum going.
Guineapigbridge · 05/08/2021 02:26
Just the two of us. He just talks and talks without seemingly taking a breath. I'm very confident and have a strong voice. But this guy never lets me talk. Good advice, I'll watch to see what the other two senior execs that report to him do. I've caught myself simpering and tittering at what he says when really I just want to say, "stop talking! I know about this, it's what you employed me for"
NiceGerbil · 05/08/2021 02:42
Not listened and only read a bit of the thread sorry!
Does it go into stuff like
Men feel 50/50 if women are about 30%. If 50/50 they feel it's female dominated.
The heavy cues, comments etc which indicate a woman speaking should STFU.
That's related to s thing where in work meetings etc. Men (and tbf loads of women go along with it- it's all unconscious) that the men's role is to talk and the women's role is to sort of facilitate? Smile nod etc.
I remember a brilliant thing at an old job. Team watched a video about the importance of power stances. I pointed out that if I sat in my chair in the recommended way, to make me feel confident. Everyone would be able to see up my skirt.
Additionally. That making yourself look larger in order to indicate dominance and power like a gorilla. Was not going to have the same impact when you're 5'2 and have a small build.
I think there was something about roaring in the bog as well. !
NiceGerbil · 05/08/2021 02:49
Read last few posts.
Yes loads of men love the sound of their own voice.
As a woman you have to be really confident to get a word in, quite often.
I didn't when I was younger.
Now age of invisibility I've noticed that what I say is more respected then when young. And so jumping in and saying whatever in a non apologetic way is much easier.
I think that in the end women don't speak up so much because we know deep down it's not welcome.
Couple ideas though.
If a team.
Regular meetings
Suggest to who runs them to go round the table. If there is anyone new etc say you've noticed they don't speak up.
If ideas type meetings.
Tell them you went on a brilliant course to optimise output.
Then you can get them to do things that make sure everyone is heard.
This is genuine good practice. Happy to give s few pointers!
NiceGerbil · 05/08/2021 02:57
'One of the things I've found most frustrating as a woman in a discussion in large groups is just that when I speak up, people often can't really hear me. I have a quiet voice and almost feel like I'm shouting with a larger group of people. '
I've met plenty of male and female higher up the chain types who were very softly spoken.
Due to their position when they started to speak everyone would listen intently.
The idea that male voices are more audible/ demand attention/ etc than women's due to pitch is a thing born out of default is male.
When the Queen speaks I imagine everyone can hear.
Olympics at the moment the interviews with women are not hard to catch.
The idea that pitch makes essentially harder to catch/ understand...
It's actually because loads of men and prob a fair few women too just switch off when women speak. Or at least, don't give as much importance as when s man speaks.
I've never met a man who struggled to hear/ notice when a woman higher up in the hierarchy was talking!
geekaMaxima · 05/08/2021 08:42
The idea that male voices are more audible/ demand attention/ etc than women's due to pitch is a thing born out of default is male.
No, it's not pitch that makes a soft voice. It's (lack of) resonance.
I'm the same, very soft voice that people can have trouble hearing in a group. The most useful thing I ever did was take a voice class - just a couple of sessions to teach me how to physically project my voice without shouting like actors on stage have to do.
Soft voices come from speaking with shallow breath from the top of the lungs. You can shout in a soft voice and it still won't carry well. But a resonant voice comes from speaking from the diaphragm, and even a normal volume will be audible. It's a bit more effortful but I can switch into it at will now.
Of course I'm pretty sure that soft voices are still largely a result of female socialisation But men's greater lung capacity also means that their voices are more likely to resonant without trying.
Abitofalark · 05/08/2021 17:00
@NiceGerbil
Does it go into stuff like
Men feel 50/50 if women are about 30%. If 50/50 they feel it's female dominated.
The heavy cues, comments etc which indicate a woman speaking should STFU.
That's related to s thing where in work meetings etc. Men (and tbf loads of women go along with it- it's all unconscious) that the men's role is to talk and the women's role is to sort of facilitate? Smile nod etc.
I remember a brilliant thing at an old job. Team watched a video about the importance of power stances. I pointed out that if I sat in my chair in the recommended way, to make me feel confident. Everyone would be able to see up my skirt.
Additionally. That making yourself look larger in order to indicate dominance and power like a gorilla. Was not going to have the same impact when you're 5'2 and have a small build.
I think there was something about roaring in the bog as well. !
It started off by mentioning the common perception that women like to talk and do talk a lot but then went on to show that this isn't so in meetings, classrooms and other settings. It looked at some of the reasons why men dominate, such as having the higher position gives more opportunities for speaking and interaction, e.g. chairing a meeting means you can ask questions and have conversations with a greater number of people. But some are to do with acceptance of authority and that's a tricky problem for women and girls whereas it's more readily accorded to men. There's more but I can't remember it all now.
It's still on iPlayer and is only half an hour if you want to listen to it.
I've since heard on Woman's Hour that Mary Ann Sieghart has a book out called 'The Authority Gap' and that she had commissioned research into the topic. I hadn't picked that up from the programme.
SmokedDuck · 05/08/2021 22:03
@NiceGerbil
Yeah, my voice is just quiet. Masks make it worse. Once I get started it's generally fine but it's a matter of being initially heard.
I can speak up quite loudly - in the army I had to be loud speaking to groups - but that's almost yelling which isn't so great in a normal setting.
Body language helps to get attention, but even so, if I am in a conference or class, I always think - do I really want to say this and go to the trouble of speaking up in a way that feels unnatural? So I say less than I might.
Not totally a female problem obviously, some men are quieter, but I think it affects more men than women.
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