Egg donation/selling - Canada

[OhHolyJesus]

I thought this was a really interesting (and rare) observation.

"Rather, Canadian public policy arguments promote a patriarchal and simplistic outlook that women can only make independent and well-informed decisions about their bodies when payment is absent. The AHRA prohibitions fail to consider how non-commercial reasons for egg donation may lead to the exploitation of women....

In this instance, it becomes clear that egg donation, even without being commercialized, can be coerced rather than voluntary and can lead to the exploitation of women."

www.thelawyersdaily.ca/articles/28180/reconsidering-assisted-human-reproduction-act-prohibitions-shidvash-bayat-and-zeina-husseini

In the U.K. you can't sell your eggs but women can claim higher 'compensation' (up to £750) than sperm donors (who can claim up to £35). So why the difference, if it's 'compensation' (usually that is for damages, negligence etc awarded by a court for a loss or earning) or is it just expenses?

Expenses could be a bus fare or a cross-country train ticket.

The section you highlighted is about the only worthwhile part of that report. And even then it didn't actually offer any solution as to how women should be protected from coercion in non- commercial familial situations.

The rest of it was very gung ho about opening up the commercialisation of anything to do with "fertility treatment"

Admittedly it was a conflicted piece of writing, recognising what the truth is whislt rapidly burying it in the narrative about choice-y choice feminism and a woman's 'right' to sell her DNA for cash.

The use of the word 'compensation' and 'expenses', in U.K. coverage of this issue (both in law and in the media) is important though I think, also the word 'donor' or 'donate'.

If you get paid up to £750 to 'donate' your eggs, are you being paid or simply being recompensed for time, inconvenience and 'expenses'?

Ifyou get paid up to £750 to 'donate' your eggs, are you being paid or simply being recompensed for time, inconvenience and 'expenses'?

A bit of both? Presumably egg donation involves far more time and effort than sperm donation? Possibly unpaid time off work ?

As an employer I have no skin in this game if someone uses up paid holidays to do this. I would however be extremely annoyed if someone was looking for fully paid sick leave for this.

If your employee developed OHSS as a result of the egg 'donation' she would be suffering with a related condition to the act of the eggs being harvested and could end up in hospital.

If you had ever had eggs harvested you wouldn’t be asking why it’s more involved than wanking into a cup. It’s several weeks’ prep then a fair amount of pain.

@OhHolyJesus

If your employee developed OHSS as a result of the egg 'donation' she would be suffering with a related condition to the act of the eggs being harvested and could end up in hospital.

I was thinking more of time off to have this done and a few days general recuperation, but you're right- there could be complications.

I appreciate this is a minor issue in the whole panoply of what is wrong with this.

Two things that stood out from this article:

1. "It is noteworthy that this study is often the only Canadian-based research used by Canadian parliamentarians regarding exploitation in surrogacy and egg donation arrangements." The lack of studies in egg donation and long-term physical and mental health to the mothers donating is very troubling.

1. I have issues when a man makes recommendations over government policies that impact young women's bodies. He seems quite intelligent, yet what is his motivation in increasing "supply" of young women's eggs?

I am glad this issue was raised, but to me it just further shows that egg donation should be banned.

"Professor Rakhi Ruparelia provides the example of women who must often deal with family hierarchies placing daughters and daughters-in-law at the bottom (see Rakhi Rupareliaa_, “Giving Away the ‘Gift of Life’: Surrogacy and the Canadian Assisted Human Reproduction Act,” Canadian Journal of Family Law, Vol. 23 No. 1 (2007): 11-54). These women would typically be most susceptible to coercion and pressure to undergo egg donation against their will. To establish themselves within the family, these younger women must often yield to higher ranking women in the family who may suggest that they have kids for others in the family through fertility arrangements."

@MySocalledLoaf

If you had ever had eggs harvested you wouldn’t be asking why it’s more involved than wanking into a cup. It’s several weeks’ prep then a fair amount of pain.

I realise it's more involved, hence the higher 'compensation', I was pointing out how it's hypocrisy.

Either it's the same or it's different and if it's different and therefore worth more then it's transactional, and using a synonym doesn't change that.

Why is an egg worth more than sperm when they are used for the same purpose? It's the process of 'retrieval'. An orgasm in a cup does not compare to the hugely involved and invasive process for egg retrieval, nor does it carry anything close to the same risks (are there any risks for men? I can't think of any. If hygiene was an issue at the clinic when a man deposits his...deposit, there would perhaps be a tiny, tiny, tiny risk but no man is going to walk out with an STI or and STD, a woman having her overstimulated ovary- egg release hoovered up could end up with a stroke.)

Any type of exploitation is based in the truth that it is a transaction, not a 'donation'. It's not dropping off a bag of second hand clothes at a charity shop or making a direct debit to a charity online.

It's the language that annoys me. Well, that's part of it anyway.

This young woman nearly died from OHSS.

Her medical care was utterly negligent, the ivf clinics just want to harvest as many eggs as possible.

Aside from negligent medical care, I was surprised at how much was involved with her being at the beck and call of the agency, required to travel to Canada twice for treatment, taking hormones to make her cycle fit the cycle of the woman who was buying the eggs.

Getting paid about $6k must have seemed like easy money but even if she hadn't got sick it definitely wasn't easy.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000517068532

My understanding is that egg donation is very involved and carries various risks.

So much about this whole area is really troubling.

Eg women can get discounts on fertility treatment in return for eggs they don't use

Surrogacy is just a no for me. For so many reasons.

I found out recently that it's usual these days for lesbian couples to conceive via IVF at great expense. When did that happen?! It doesn't make sense to me if no medical issues

The dehumanising language and the casual approach to what women contribute to making a baby Vs men.

Yeah not good.

A thread from Jennifer Lahl about this woman's claim for compensation.
They have come to an out of court agreement for excess of $75,000 which doesn't seem anything like enough imo.
Her health has been damaged for life and we all know healthcare in USA is expensive.

twitter.com/jenniferlahl/status/1422580708145467394?s=21

Link to the related article.

www.cbc-network.org/2014/05/paid-for-her-silence-the-exploitation-of-kylee-gilman/

The previous podcast I linked was with Kylee, the young woman so badly damaged as a result of donating her eggs.

I have just been listening to this podcast which is just jaw dropping. I really encourage anyone interested in issues relating to egg donation to listen to it.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000515053127

I'd like to think that egg donation is better regulated in the U.K. thanks to the HFEA and the limit on compensation of £750.
And whilst no woman should suffer permanent damage to her health as a result of being encouraged to #BeKind at least here we have the NHS should things go wrong. One of the issues pointed out in the podcast is that many egg donors in the USA are absolutely doing it for the money, to pay the rent and student loans or whatever their pressing needs are, and many of them don't have health insurance.
So any long term harm will cost them far in excess of any payment they receive.

Among the issues raised are that women in the USA are aggressively overstimulated to maximise the egg "harvest" and the support group We Are Egg Donors reports knowing exactly which Drs and clinics are guilty of causing EVERY SINGLE woman who donates to end up in the emergency room the next day.

And most enraging of all .... where have we heard that suicide trope before? "This is a life saving treatment because infertility causes such despair ....so not only will you be giving the gift of life, you will be saving a life too."

It's outrageous.

(About 2 - 3 minutes in to the podcast).

I found out recently that it's usual these days for lesbian couples to conceive via IVF at great expense. When did that happen?! It doesn't make sense to me if no medical issues

Donor sperm from a licensed sperm bank can be very expensive, sometimes more than £1,000 per sample. Also, the success rates for IUI are not nearly as good as for IVF. I (aged 35), was given a predicted success rate of 25% for one IUI attempt, increasing to a cumulative success rate of 30% after three or more attempts. The low cumulative success rates really surprised me.

I can’t remember my exact chances for IVF, but they were something like 45-55% after one cycle, and 55-65% after three cycles.

I’d assumed I’d have IUI, but I ended up going for a three-cycle part-refundable package of IVF. It worked, but I still have small nagging doubts about the health implications. And I have no doubt that the UK fertility industry is a racket, with some prices bearing no relation to the actual cost of providing the treatment.

I think the reason many lesbians opt for IVF is so that the carrying partner can use an egg retrieved from the non-carrying partner, so that the resulting baby has genetic influence from both mothers.

That podcast was amazing! Thanks for sharing @FannyCann.

It was so insightful and as with surrogacy, really important to hear the other side of story.

I think what Liz said about what else you can do instead of egg donation, doing live organ donation, was fascinating. She had health monitoring for two years afterwards!

The straight up manipulation of young woman to donate their eggs is truly frightening, especially as there are clearly unknown health risks with no research, and I don't think it should be advertised at all, I can't believe it's allowed at U.K. universities, it seems...predatory.

If a man donates it’s not at all invasive and literally a few minutes of his time. No pain, injections or risks.

If a woman donates it’s days of hormone injections, then an egg retrieval which is under sedation or general anaesthetic and involves time off work. Then there increased risk of complications eg ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome, ovarian torsion , cancer risk (debatable)

Slightly related - Weirdly, I have been getting ads for some Canadian group recruiting surrogates on my Facebook page.

@FannyCann

And most enraging of all .... where have we heard that suicide trope before? "This is a life saving treatment because infertility causes such despair ....so not only will you be giving the gift of life, you will be saving a life too."

It's outrageous.

(About 2 - 3 minutes in to the podcast).

I'm seeing suicide tropes turning up more and more in the public materials for a wider range of patient organisations.

I don't know tons about this issue, but I think some of this comes down to lots of people, younger women probably moreso, not fully understanding the deeper issues.

I honestly never realized or thought about some of the feminist aspects to egg donating. When I was a lot younger I just believed that unless a woman was overtly forced, then it was up to the woman to decide, and if she wanted to donate eggs, cool, do it. I'm still torn about that. Back then I even looked into it, started researching it from a place that does it, what it entailed. I decided, hell no, not for me cuz of the hormones you'd have to take, the procedures, the possible physical side effects. So I didn't pursue. I would've done it for the money cuz I didn't/don't want kids so to me my eggs are useless, and if another person or couple wanted em (and I was assuming the place checked they would be ok parents etc) then why not, plus I was young and no money, so win-win. I think maybe lots of women feel this way. Now if it would've been as simple as it is for men to donate sperm, I honestly might have done it. I certainly wouldn't now even if it was, mostly cuz I trust drs etc about zero. The whole process made me not want to. Plus I would've had to travel very far.

Plus, as an aside; I don't know about nowadays but like 10 or so years ago the place (dunno if they all do this?) was very strict about whose eggs they would accept; like you had to have a thorough physical and mental health exam. I think they only wanted top notch, physically and mentally healthy babies, which made sense to me, but that was a further reason I didn't pursue it cuz they would not have accepted my eggs, I'm too damaged physically and mentally. It wasn't worth any amount of money to me, between all the hassle to your time, body, etc, so never thought about it again, figuring if some women want to, up to them. It's been in the media more so I've tried to learn the reasons why some people say it's damaging to women/a feminist issue. To me I did not want nor need my eggs, so if they could be used to make a happy, healthy baby with loving parents AND I got paid for it, cool. At first I was like, I have lots of money sitting in my ovaries?? Sweet. And a couple who is sad they can't have kids could use mine since I never will, cool.

And a lot of younger people are very low on money, especially nowadays; like I think statistics show that most young adults can't, won't be able to own their own homes for example; college costs are insane; cost of living, etc.

Never realized some of the other darker issues with it though, so thanks, has me thinking!

If the process was as simple as the mens' and women didn't have the horrible physical crap to endure cuz of it, and the baby was made sure to be placed with nice parents, would it still be as big a problem, feminism wise? Not sure, just wondering. I think there are a lot of women's rights issues that aren't even acknowledged or seen by general people (including me, sorry ) cuz the issues are so intricate maybe? Or it's purposely swept under the rug? Plus in school when you're taught women's rights, unless you delve or take classes specific to it maybe, a lot of things aren't touched.

And tbh, starting in grade school, I was under the impression that in modern societies, women had all their rights now, the women's rights movement was had, now it's all great. Any sexism etc I faced was either my fault or I was being ungrateful etc cuz the west won women's rights. I doubt I'm the only one who thought this. It is kinda taught that way, or was. Strangely though, I didn't think the same about race equality; like, I knew and recognized that even though there was the civil rights and Martin Luther King etc that our societies still had lots of racism (plus I saw it first hand). I was blind somehow to sexism, mostly. Thought it was rare; just small percentage of rare jerks, cuz society grew up, was over that now. Probably had/have some internal misogyny towards my own self and body, not to others, to be honest which only recognized as time has passed in my life. Eek, makes me really sad, actually.

Tbh, I would never wanna be a boy (no offense to boys!), and many aspects of being a girl I like, but honestly I hate being a girl too cuz it's too horrifying and scary to me. Sometimes I think if all humans had literally no sex and no gender and literally all looked the same that people would be safer (especially girls) and lots of societal problems might lessen.

Anyway, thanks for making me think; it's horrifying being a female on earth, that's all I gotta say.

To me it very much sounds like a lot of the exploitative issues can be summed up by the difference between consent and informed consent. If the woman truly understands the risks then that’s one thing, but how often does the #beKind sales pitch really make sure of that.