Late term abortion, high court

[Anycrispsleft]

I saw this on the BBC this morning - it's High Court review of the rules on late term abortions. The campaigners are seeking to remove the exception to the ban on post 24 week abortion that allows it in the case of "non-lethal" disabilities. The woman who is asking for the review wants the law to be changed on the grounds that it's discrimination against disabled people.

Apologies if this case has been covered before, I'm a newcomer to FWR having been radicalised by you people on Twitter. I just wanted to express this thought that occurred to me: the trans debate has shown me that whatever good-thinking progressives think, rights are sometimes like pie, in that giving one person more rights can mean less rights for someone else. And this is also like that, isn't it? There's a balancing of the rights of the foetus (not that a foetus has legal rights, at least not yet) and the rights of the mother. Until now I used to sort of shy away from this bit of the ethics of abortion. I am very strongly pro choice, but I always wanted to be able to justify that stance in a sort of objective way, considering the cases of the foetus and the mother as though I had no skin in the game. And I realised I can't actually do that, because I do have skin in the game, because I am a woman, I have two girls, and I want all of us to have control over our own bodies. It's not that I think I am objectively right. I want to win this. I don't care about the rights and wrongs from an academic point of view. I don't want my children to have to carry a child they don't want to term. Full stop. I'm sure others would be able to put this in a much more eloquent way but I feel like I've reached a new point in my feminism and I wanted to share it. I'm not neutral. I'm team woman.

@pinkpip100

No I don't understand why you think doctors should be discouraging women from going ahead with their pregnancies. Surely it isn't up to doctors to do this either way - that's not offering choice. What women need is unbiased information to make their own decisions, which would allow for both sides of the very different personal experiences we bring to the table *@NeonDreams*

@pinkpip100 I agree with you 100%.

@NeonDreams your comments are absolutely disgusting, and wouldn't be tolerated about any other proportion of society. Who are you to say what humans are worthy of being born?

@Mylovelyhorsechestnut So you find a real person's lived experience 'disgusting'? I find your ignorance absolutely disgusting. Please keep in your comfortable bubble, but stop trying to shame and silence those of us who know what we're talking about.

[quote NeonDreams]@Mylovelyhorsechestnut So you find a real person's lived experience 'disgusting'? I find your ignorance absolutely disgusting. Please keep in your comfortable bubble, but stop trying to shame and silence those of us who know what we're talking about.[/quote]
I have a daughter who has DS, so I do know what I'm talking about. I also know many families with children with DS. It's you who is completely ignorant. You are generalising massively because of your experience with one family member. And spouting highly offensive views, likening Down's syndrome to cancer, WTF? Why should people who wish to continue their pregnancy with a child with down's be forced to terminate? Why is my choice to continue less valid than someone who wishes to terminate?

@Mylovelyhorsechestnut So your one daughter outweighs my family's experience? Really? Talk about ignorance! The point is, the births should not be encouraged. That is my view. That is the view of many people who work with people with DS. That is the view of my aunt, and of my cousins. Why is your opinion more important or more valid than others?

@Mylovelyhorsechestnut I never said they should be forced to terminate. I said it should be discouraged though, just as you would discourage a birth of a child with Spina Bifida or with any other detrimental health condition. Hence the 'cancer' comment (that was my aunt's, incidentally). We use modern medical technology to prevent diseases or births where there are severe or moderate fetal abnormalities. That's the purpose of which the medical science exists for. I never thought I would come across people who think these things should be encouraged? I can't wrap my head around that.

[quote NeonDreams]@Mylovelyhorsechestnut So your one daughter outweighs my family's experience? Really? Talk about ignorance! The point is, the births should not be encouraged. That is my view. That is the view of many people who work with people with DS. That is the view of my aunt, and of my cousins. Why is your opinion more important or more valid than others?[/quote]
I'm basing my views not only on my experience with my daughter, but also, as I said previously, the many other families I know who have children with DS. This also includes those with siblings with DS, grown-up children with DS. How dare you say that births should not be encouraged? Are there any other characteristics of people who you don't view as worthy of being born so shouldn't live? Would you cull all those who you dont deem to be perfect? Those who have had strokes? Car accidents? Other disabilities? My daughter is perfect as she is thanks, DS is a small part of who she is and I am incredibly lucky to have her in my life.

"The point is, the births should not be encouraged"

But @NeonDreams, you are repeating this as though it is fact. It's not, it's just your opinion. Others (with equally valid personal experience) have very different opinions. And you seem very surprised by this, as though your negative personal experience trumps the positive personal experiences that @Mylovelyhorsechestnut and I have posted about.

Ultimately, if you are pro-choice, surely that means women have the right to choose without being 'encouraged' either way. It's their own personal decision to make based on unbiased information.

Jeez @NeonDreams for someone who claims to be reading your posts several times to make sure your wording is 'sensitive' you are doing a great job of posting very offensive stuff.

@pinkpip100 Actually I am surprised that Chestnut and yourself are so surprised someone could think knowingly bringing a child into the world with disabilities is wrong. It seems like it never occurred to either of you that people would find it wrong. And very cruel.

@pinkpip100 If you find it 'offensive' that someone thinks knowingly bringing a child with disabilities into the world is wrong, then I guess that's why you're so surprised and shocked because you appear to live in an echo chamber. Not in the harsh real world where people see these struggles for what they are, and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[quote NeonDreams]@Mylovelyhorsechestnut Here we go again with the stroke, car accidents etc false equivalence. Those things happen after birth, the mother has no control over it, if the parent knowingly brings a child with disabilities into the world, I feel that is selfish and wrong. Especially when our disability services are already stretched to the limit.[/quote]
So you're saying that those people who have had strokes, car accidents etc also aren't worthy of life but the mother didn't know that before they were born, so can't be helped? I'm not selfish for deciding to give birth to my own child because ignorant people like you think she doesn't have a place in the world. Shame we can't screen for for bastard personalities hey

Again - an incredibly ableist viewpoint there @NeonDreams.
You honestly can't see that calling people selfish and cruel for deciding to continue with a pregnancy despite being aware that their baby will have a disability is offensive?

So you're saying that those people who have had strokes, car accidents etc also aren't worthy of life

No, I am not saying that at all @Mylovelyhorsechestnut , and you know it.
Shame we can't screen for for bastard personalities hey
Very true.

@pinkpip100 If it's offensive, perhaps it's because it's the truth? Are you really so surprised that other human beings would see knowingly bringing a child with disabilities into this world is selfish and cruel? Did that not even occur to you until now?

@NeonDreams I have come across that viewpoint before (and can you imagine how that feels as the parent to incredibly loved disabled children? No, probably you can't). Only ever from ableist, bigoted, narrow minded people though.

[quote pinkpip100]@NeonDreams I have come across that viewpoint before (and can you imagine how that feels as the parent to incredibly loved disabled children? No, probably you can't). Only ever from ableist, bigoted, narrow minded people though. [/quote]
@pinkpip100 Your attitude is harmful and silencing. Most people would think the same as me, as quite frankly, it's just proper. The fact that you label everyone with direct experience who feels it's not something to be encouraged as 'vile', 'ableist', 'bigoted', 'narrow minded', shows that you truly bully others into submission and no doubt most if not all people would think the same but know that you are menacing and silencing so won't raise it with you. Thus, you live in an echo chamber. Where the romanticisation of a child with disabilities prevents any real rational dialogue. I can guarantee that many, many people also would feel it is cruel and wrong to knowingly bring a child with disabilities into the world, but they will not even enter the conversation with you because you are so closed-minded to will howl them down into submission. Your attitude really is not helpful to true, open minded, honest and constructive dialogue.

The point is neondreams, it should be a personal choice but you are not advocating for that. You are well within your rights, and your family members, to decide for yourselves if you want to bring a disabled child in the world. Why are you trying to remove the choice away from others who have a different, more positive experience than you and your family have? You don’t have any right to decide for others if they should or shouldn’t bring a child into the world. You will not be the one bringing the child up.

Doctors should be neutral and unbiased. Too many mothers who chose to keep their babies have reported being repeatedly asked for the remainder of their pregnancies if they want to terminate. That is wrong. Doctors should provide as much information and support as possible but shouldn’t encourage or discourage either way.

@Rainy365

The point is neondreams, it should be a personal choice but you are not advocating for that. You are well within your rights, and your family members, to decide for yourselves if you want to bring a disabled child in the world. Why are you trying to remove the choice away from others who have a different, more positive experience than you and your family have? You don’t have any right to decide for others if they should or shouldn’t bring a child into the world. You will not be the one bringing the child up.

Doctors should be neutral and unbiased. Too many mothers who chose to keep their babies have reported being repeatedly asked for the remainder of their pregnancies if they want to terminate. That is wrong. Doctors should provide as much information and support as possible but shouldn’t encourage or discourage either way.

Once again, thank you for articulating this far better than I can. I completely accept that my personal experience here gives me too much 'skin in the game' so really appreciate others for managing to say it in a less emotional way that I can.

@pinkpip100 People like you and chestnut have forced my aunt to feel she has no one to talk to if she doesn't make the same excited and over-enthusiastic overtures on the topic. One of my cousins burst into tears to me because her teachers thought she was brave with her brother, instead her brother takes up so much of her family's time, she has had to quit hobbies. She is miserable and said openly she hates her brother. But what would you say if she came to you in tears and said that? You would no doubt call her 'vile', 'bigoted', 'narrow minded', 'disgusting', and type of invalidating and silencing language you can find. Because society has so romanticised DS and the 'cute babies', she feel she has no where to go, no one to talk to because she can't say how it really truly is. People like you are the reason people feel bullied and silenced, because what they say isn't the fantasy narrative that many push on this topic. Sorry, but posters like you and your positive-only narrative is very dangerous in that it leads people in this situation into submission and silence. And that's not good.

*than I can

@Rainy365

The point is neondreams, it should be a personal choice but you are not advocating for that. You are well within your rights, and your family members, to decide for yourselves if you want to bring a disabled child in the world. Why are you trying to remove the choice away from others who have a different, more positive experience than you and your family have? You don’t have any right to decide for others if they should or shouldn’t bring a child into the world. You will not be the one bringing the child up.

Doctors should be neutral and unbiased. Too many mothers who chose to keep their babies have reported being repeatedly asked for the remainder of their pregnancies if they want to terminate. That is wrong. Doctors should provide as much information and support as possible but shouldn’t encourage or discourage either way.

That's not true. I have repeatedly said it should be a choice. But that Doctors should be honest and should, if asked their opinion, discourage continuing, just as if they would encourage acting on some other health issue. Doctors can only be as 'neutral' and 'unbiased' as the facts are, and some things such as DS it's not like they can be unbiased, when the pro's just aren't there. I don't think a doctor should hassle a patient after they've made their decision.

Ok @NeonDreams I have said this many times and in many ways but you just don't seem to get it. Your relatives' personal experience is of course totally valid and no one should ever shut them down or make them feel as though their narrative isn't the 'right' one. I would absolutely never shut them down, they have as much right to tell everyone and anyone about their experiences without judgement, as do I.

What I am calling ableist and offensive are your assertions that women should be strongly encouraged not to continue with a pregnancy if they have a prenatal diagnosis, and indeed that anyone who makes the decision to carry on is cruel and selfish. And that down syndrome is no different to cancer etc and therefore should be eradicated.

What I am calling ableist and offensive are your assertions that women should be strongly encouraged not to continue with a pregnancy if they have a prenatal diagnosis, and indeed that anyone who makes the decision to carry on is cruel and selfish.

If that is your definition of 'ableist' and 'offensive' then that's for you, but to me, discouraging the continuing the pregnancy is simply common sense and yes, as I said, and most would agree, knowingly bringing a child into this world with disabilities is indeed cruel and selfish. It is what it is.

Anyway I think I'll hide this thread, as I find it far too offensive and far too upsetting to defend something that is basically common sense and ask many people with experience with DS and they will say the same thing, it should not be encouraged.