Late term abortion, high court

[Anycrispsleft]

I saw this on the BBC this morning - it's High Court review of the rules on late term abortions. The campaigners are seeking to remove the exception to the ban on post 24 week abortion that allows it in the case of "non-lethal" disabilities. The woman who is asking for the review wants the law to be changed on the grounds that it's discrimination against disabled people.

Apologies if this case has been covered before, I'm a newcomer to FWR having been radicalised by you people on Twitter. I just wanted to express this thought that occurred to me: the trans debate has shown me that whatever good-thinking progressives think, rights are sometimes like pie, in that giving one person more rights can mean less rights for someone else. And this is also like that, isn't it? There's a balancing of the rights of the foetus (not that a foetus has legal rights, at least not yet) and the rights of the mother. Until now I used to sort of shy away from this bit of the ethics of abortion. I am very strongly pro choice, but I always wanted to be able to justify that stance in a sort of objective way, considering the cases of the foetus and the mother as though I had no skin in the game. And I realised I can't actually do that, because I do have skin in the game, because I am a woman, I have two girls, and I want all of us to have control over our own bodies. It's not that I think I am objectively right. I want to win this. I don't care about the rights and wrongs from an academic point of view. I don't want my children to have to carry a child they don't want to term. Full stop. I'm sure others would be able to put this in a much more eloquent way but I feel like I've reached a new point in my feminism and I wanted to share it. I'm not neutral. I'm team woman.

@NiceGerbil

'It's not good enough to leave this to private members' bills and amendments. We need proper debate, preferably a public consultation, and a thoughtful review of the law.'

I wrote to my MP a few years ago before the NI change in law.

She replied and said that she has concerns that any opening up of changes/ debate can go otherwise to the way you might hope.

I think this is s fair point.

Yes of course it should be decriminalised. And available until X weeks without barriers.

In practice though in England and Wales it works as if on demand. I haven't heard of issues with access.

I looked up the stats the other day and early abortions are increasing - loads before 10 weeks now.

I think that shows access is fast as well.

My concern with opening it up is that as a PP has pointed out a lot, 24 weeks is pretty late for countries where it's legal. 12, 20 numbers like that are common.

As medicine improves so the argument to restrict it to 'viability' (even if in practice the earlier it is viable increasingly includes babies with issues that will impact their whole lives etc).

In general the world seems to be getting more religious and more right wing. The demographics of religious belief have changed over the last decades I would bet.

Abortion is also (along with anti vaxx) a target for targeted misinformation from Russia. We know from brexit and Corona that misinformation works. It's targeted. And the internet polarised.

Also anti-abortion orgs based in the USA are active here now in various forms and they are well funded.

So I would rather stay as is. The realty of our services is they work. And the risk of opening it all up is IMO v high.

Then we will continue to have private members bills and amendments, as well as legal challenges like the one that is the subject of this thread. Part of the justification for these is that the abortion act is well over 50 years old and has never been properly reviewed in all that time.

We can't stop arguments being made for a reduction in time limits. We can either meet them head on in a considered way, as part of a full review, or we can cross our fingers and hope that such a change is not forced by the courts or slipped through as an amendment to some vast bill following about 5 minutes debating time.

I agree that the world is becoming more religious and right wing and that US ant-abortion orgs are becoming more powerful. That's why I think we should grasp the nettle now, before things get even worse.

We could not decriminalise, even to 12 weeks, without those arguments being aired and debated. The current legal framework absolutely does cause delays and it deters doctors from wanting to work in abortion care:

www.bpas.org/about-our-charity/press-office/press-releases/doctors-believe-uk-s-outdated-abortion-law-restricts-their-ability-to-provide-the-best-care-for-women-new-study-finds/

The big change in 2020 has been the ability for women to have medical abortions at home, without visiting a clinic, because of covid. This is very welcome but the arrangement still only has temporary approval, we are waiting for the outcome of the consultation on whether it should be made permanent.

But this only helps up to 10 weeks. I notice from the supplementary tables on this page that very young women, including girls under 16, are much more likely to access abortion at a later stage in their pregnancy:

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-during-the-coronavirus-pandemic-january-to-june-2020

*honestly think

I strongly disagree NeonDreams.

'Doing all we can to discourage the births' is as anti-choice as 'doing all we can to discourage termination.'

While I hope this legal challenge fails I can absolutely see where they are coming from in terms of indirect discrimination. The existence of attitudes like yours is the strongest part of their case.

@LangClegsInSpace

I strongly disagree NeonDreams.

'Doing all we can to discourage the births' is as anti-choice as 'doing all we can to discourage termination.'

While I hope this legal challenge fails I can absolutely see where they are coming from in terms of indirect discrimination. The existence of attitudes like yours is the strongest part of their case.

@LangClegsInSpace Or maybe it's because I have a relative with Down Syndrome and have seen what my aunt, uncle and their children my cousins have been through? Maybe, just maybe, I might know far more about this that you know, and my 'attitude' is born out of experience and REALITY.

@LangClegsInSpace It's head-in-the-sand attitudes like yours that prevent truthful discussion taking place. People like you made it harder for my aunt and uncle, and silenced my cousins from ever expressing their resentment of their sibling. Because people like you will accuse them of all sorts of things from being selfish to insensitive - I've seen it. People like you silence honest and open discussion by those who have more experience than you can imagine.

@NeonDreams as someone who does have direct experience I find your posts about down syndrome vile, offensive and discriminatory, and have reported them as such. Thank you to pp who have also called them out.

[quote pinkpip100]@NeonDreams as someone who does have direct experience I find your posts about down syndrome vile, offensive and discriminatory, and have reported them as such. Thank you to pp who have also called them out. [/quote]
So you are attempting silence someone who DOES have direct experience (myself) because you don't want to see other views expressed? Then I'll be reporting your posts too for attempting to bully and silence.

I'm not attempting to silence you, but comparing down syndrome to cancer etc, and asserting that we should be aiming to eradicate it for the good of society - these are offensive (and inaccurate) comments and should be called out as such.

I have not reported any of your posts relating to your direct experience by the way, just those mentioned in my previous post.

@pinkpip100

I'm not attempting to silence you, but comparing down syndrome to cancer etc, and asserting that we should be aiming to eradicate it for the good of society - these are offensive (and inaccurate) comments and should be called out as such.

Yes, you are. Whether it is a disability such as Down Syndrome or something else, if we have the mentions of prevention we should be doing so if it is known of before hand via testing. The births should be discouraged no encouraged. I have contacted Mumsnet and told them my aunt and one of my cousins approves of my posting about this and that I will forward contact details to them to verify if they wish. They aren't members here but are following this thread with interest and have approved of my wording.

@NeonDreams yours is an incredibly ableist viewpoint. Disability is not an inherently bad thing you know? It's also a massively diverse category and I am sure many people with disabilities would be offended by your words.

Also @NeonDreams the experiences of your relatives are just one family's experiences - can you accept that? Just as my family's experiences of our amazing dc with down syndrome are also just one family's experiences.

[quote pinkpip100]@NeonDreams yours is an incredibly ableist viewpoint. Disability is not an inherently bad thing you know? It's also a massively diverse category and I am sure many people with disabilities would be offended by your words. [/quote]
No @pinkpip100 my view is a REALIST view, born out of actual direct experience. My aunt deeply regrets the birth. My cousins resent him. Are they allowed to speak even if their views don't align with your mindset? Are they? I bet you would make them feel ashamed for their feelings, their truth, their experiences. People like you who romanticise it are people who do far more harm than good.

@ForgotAboutThis

Hypothetical- if you ban abortion after the point of viability, say 24 weeks, does that mean that a woman who no longer wishes to be pregnant/have a baby at that point can give birth? Because that's the only way I see a balance if you believe that the fetus has rights. So, it has the right to life, but it doesn't have the right to use the woman's body? I'm also in the early as possible, late as necessary camp and trust women to make their own choices.

We just stick to the status quo, which doesn’t permit the termination of a healthy fetus after 24 weeks.

I get why campaigners want the same for certain disabilities like Downs but ... we should also admit that not everything is fair in life, imho.

@pinkpip100

Also *@NeonDreams* the experiences of your relatives are just one family's experiences - can you accept that? Just as my family's experiences of our amazing dc with down syndrome are also just one family's experiences.

Yet I am not attempting to shut down your experiences, @pinkpip100 I would never report your posts of your experience even if I find them fanciful, unrealistic and as such, damaging. So I appreciate you not shutting down my family's experiences by calling us 'ableist', 'vile', and what ever silencing terminology you can find. Not everyone is happy like you. In fact, to be honest, I do wonder if you are protesting too much.

I do get what you are saying here, but the thing is, even in countries that have amazing social welfare, babies with this condition are largely aborted, actually at the highest rates. No amount of support, financial or otherwise, changes minds.

I think it’s just people don’t want to raise a child with special needs. And that’s okay imvho, as hurtful as it must be to hear for campaigners.

We’ll do the same for autism no doubt once we can screen for that too.

@NeonDreams the posts I am reporting don't even mention your personal experiences - they just make incorrect comparisons between down syndrome and diseases, and suggest that we should be doing whatever we can to prevent children with down syndrome from being born. Where is the choice in that?

@NeonDreams

There’s a way to talk about these things without being insulting to those with congenital conditions and disabilities. She’s not asking you to stop talking but to reconsider your language on this. It’s worrying you want doctors to discourage when they should be gently asking women to weigh up pros and cons and hear and consider all sides wrt their personal situation.

@pinkpip100 Actually, my aunt made the cancer comparison to me. She is the mother of a son with Down Syndrome. And SHE made the comment! Now, is she ableist? Or is it simply that she with her experience, sees it for what it is? She has a different opinion than you. Is that allowed? Or is only your view allowed? The comparison with the diseases is apt and important because we have the testing technology to prevent these diseases and these births. That's what they're there for.

@UsedUpUsername I agree that many (most?) people don't want to have a child with special needs. And you're right, abortion rates following a diagnosis of down syndrome are very high. I would never suggest that people don't have the right to make that choice - but I do feel that the narrative around ds is often a very negative and biased one, with lots of talk of suffering and being a burden. It is similar with autism. My lived reality, and that of many people I know, is very different from that - though as a pp has pointed out, other people have different experiences that shape their view.

[quote UsedUpUsername]@NeonDreams

There’s a way to talk about these things without being insulting to those with congenital conditions and disabilities. She’s not asking you to stop talking but to reconsider your language on this. It’s worrying you want doctors to discourage when they should be gently asking women to weigh up pros and cons and hear and consider all sides wrt their personal situation.[/quote]
I am not sure how I am being insulting - unless that means having a different view to you. In fact, I have very, very carefully worded my posts (and haven't used wording my aunt would). If anything, I have been extremely careful in my wording - often going over my posts around 4 times before posting. That's how sensitive I am trying to be. But I will not apologise for the fact that yes, I do believe doctors should be discouraging it, I find it worrying you don't think they should. I (and my aunt's family) do believe it should be discouraged. Now, they have direct experience. Are they allowed their opinion, even if reality is confronting? Are people with direct experience with DS allowed our say? Or does it have to be of a particular mindset before it is approved by those with no lived experience of this? We are the ones with direct lived experience with this. Please listen to us. Please allow us to speak, even if you don't like the reality that is our truth.

[quote UsedUpUsername]@NeonDreams

There’s a way to talk about these things without being insulting to those with congenital conditions and disabilities. She’s not asking you to stop talking but to reconsider your language on this. It’s worrying you want doctors to discourage when they should be gently asking women to weigh up pros and cons and hear and consider all sides wrt their personal situation.[/quote]

Thanks @UsedUpUsername, you have explained this far more eloquently and fairly than I have been able to.

No I don't understand why you think doctors should be discouraging women from going ahead with their pregnancies. Surely it isn't up to doctors to do this either way - that's not offering choice. What women need is unbiased information to make their own decisions, which would allow for both sides of the very different personal experiences we bring to the table @NeonDreams

"Are people with direct experience with DS allowed our say?"

@NeonDreams I am trying to, but you seem to think my experience is less valid than yours/