Religion - initially good by corrupted by patriarchy?

[BatmansBat]

So, as to not derail another thread…

I believe that many religions start out relatively positive for women given the times they were founded.

Christianity- competing with the Mithras cult in Ancient Rome. Slowly becoming more prominent due to the fact that both women and slaves were considered eligible to participate.

Islam - the prophet Mohammed’s wife Khadija was a successful business woman.

Compared to how we live today, these religions can both be extremely oppressive to women. But at the time, they were actually quite decent compared to those times.

I believe that over the centuries, many religions have become increasingly old fashioned and hostile to progress. Especially where the religious texts are interpreted literally, they are suddenly transporting us back in time to where the values was completely different to now. And not at all taking into account the progress women have made over the past two centuries.

What do you think @nicegerbil?

[KimikosNightmare]

Islam - the prophet Mohammed’s wife Khadija was a successful business woman

Assuming it is true she was a businessman then that has nothing to do with Islam and she had that status before she married.

[KimikosNightmare]

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/women.html

This might be of interest to you OP. The problem I have with it is that as there is no objective evidence that Christ existed it's not particularly convincing for me about the role that "contemporary" women are supposed to have played.

[BatmansBat]

This is a summary of the prophet Mohammed and women.

www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml

Thank you for the link , I will look at that now or maybe tomorrow morning.

[NiceGerbil]

Thanks OP!

Christianity didn't start in Rome though.

It started in the middle East.

The old testament is full of women as property, rape etc.

Religious texts are interpreted in different ways in different places at different times to back up what that group/ society thinks iyswim.

And I don't think it has ever been -as per the other thread- good for women.

We're talking about the Abrahamic religions I think? I don't know nearly enough about Buddhism Hinduism and all the other big religions through history to even think about commenting on them!

[NiceGerbil]

I found out recently that over the years, women who did good stuff in the Christian texts had their names masculined.

They were written out.

[NiceGerbil]

Religious knowledge and teaching was historically in the hands of the men wasn't it?

There may have been little sects here and there that were different, but in the main.

[NiceGerbil]

I went to an RC primary school with nuns etc btw - just in case that's relevant!

Have always been an atheist never believed a word of it even when small.

[BatmansBat]

Abrahamic religions, yes.

The Old Testament is dreadful. But it also has “an eye for an eye”, “you shall not suffer a witch to live”, etc, etc, etc. Those times were brutal for women.

I am not suggesting that these were good times. I think I still believe that early Christianity (and early Islam) strengthened women’s position. But then patriarchy and the times took over, squashed what there was and is now trying to subjugate women according to some outdated traditions.

But don’t you think that women were there and later written out, it supports my hypothesis of a stronger initial position which then was crushed?

[NiceGerbil]

'I am not suggesting that these were good times. I think I still believe that early Christianity (and early Islam) strengthened women’s position'

Early Christianity is the old testament surely? It's in the Bible.

You're thinking of new testament?

[BatmansBat]

I never went to RC school. If you did, I understand your dislike for religion.

I had a wonderful confirmation vicar. His hobby was to study the bible in the original language.

Whenever he encountered any person who did a literal bible interpretation he got super excited. He wanted to look at the original text, different translations and what he thought was the best translation. All people who believed in a literal bible interpretation avoided him like the plague 🤣

[KimikosNightmare]

@NiceGerbil

I went to an RC primary school with nuns etc btw - just in case that's relevant!

Have always been an atheist never believed a word of it even when small.

Me neither. I have a very distinct memory of sitting in Primary school aged 7 listening to religious education and thinking "I don't believe this". Old Testament in particular was no more credible than any other mythology.

There are philosophical aspects in the teachings of Christ which one could not reasonably object to but I have never had any sense of Christ being real.

[NiceGerbil]

We were given a Bible to study when we joined.

The old testament rape stuff really affected me tbh. I didn't really know what it all meant and I didn't know how to feel about it and I would read some of the passages over and over.

Tbf maybe because there wasn't a huge amount in there about women generally? Apart from the major ones.

[NiceGerbil]

I agree that the parts of new testament which get into the children's Bibles are good stuff.

You can't just ignore the new testament though and the fact when the new testament was being put together women's place in society was not equal by a long shot.

[BatmansBat]

Sorry, I may have been unclear. For me (may be a language thing), early Christianity is after the birth of Christ, so New Testament.

I do find it fascinating with the different gospels and how they are telling the same story but different aspects of it. And how important concepts were decided by the church much later (church meeting Nicaea).

I believe that there is sufficient evidence that Christ existed but no evidence that he was the son of god. My grandmother used to say that there was some overlap between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament as well, so obviously there is a lot of uncertainty around the composition of the texts.

But back to my initial point, I believe that women had a stronger position in the early Christian church (AD) and they had female religious leaders.

But then, too many men found the possibility of increased social position within the church, took all the positions and wrote women out.

[KimikosNightmare]

www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-30/inside-convent.html

This might be of some interest too.

[NiceGerbil]

I don't know enough about how things were in Rome tbh.

I mentioned earlier that different societies interpret religious texts so they support the current values etc of that society.

So I'm taking your statement that in Rome when they adopted Christianity that it was pretty supportive of the position in society for women.

I would argue that the interpretation of Christianity was such that it reflected the status quo, rather than actively meaning that the position of women was suddenly/ quickly improved by the adoption of it.

Cultural change is incredibly slow. To go from oppressing women (?) to giving them an rquali (ish?) position in society would take a massive change of individual and social norms which just wouldn't be like. BOOM! women are people too.

[KimikosNightmare]

Or this, which rather contradicts OP's position so far as the role of women in religion in pre- Christian Rome.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_Rome?wprov=sfla1

[Torvean]

@KimikosNightmare

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/women.html

This might be of interest to you OP. The problem I have with it is that as there is no objective evidence that Christ existed it's not particularly convincing for me about the role that "contemporary" women are supposed to have played.

There are several writing that prove Christ existed. And it's not by ppl who were Christian.

With regards to Islam, Muhammed was betrothed to Aisha at 6 , had a marriage ceremony when she was 9. Obviously no age is given for consumption but I think its obvious she had to be very young.

Not to female positive there.

[Torvean]

The Early church begins after the death of Christ.

Men and women were given different roles, all are important.

How do you want to receive proof that Christ was divine.
If you read the Bible you could read of all the predictions he fulfilled.

Of course someone's going to say we'll of course the bible will say that.
But of course a book about Jesus will talk of him.

The same way the books on the dark ages use documents from then. They are very limited in some cases it's just 1 man. I bet nobody here would challenge it though.

[NiceGerbil]

YY I think it's generally accepted that he was a person?

He's a prophet in Islam I think?

I always think there was probably someone who was a charismatic preacher type and then all the mythology grew up around him.

Whoever and whatever he was, I can't accept that religion in general is good for women until it gets subverted by men (talking Abrahamic but in fact not sorry super knowledgeable on them even Christianity despite the nuns!

[BatmansBat]

www.jstor.org/stable/3711820

The link above suggests that many historians agree that women in early Christianity had a stronger position than in pagan societies at the same time.

commons.emich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1578&context=honors

The link above suggests the same thing. I would argue that it appears that situation in general was awful for women of the time but that they in Christianity found agency and a somewhat stronger position. Before it was ruined 😡

[NiceGerbil]

Torvean how do you know that wasn't going on around the place, but wasn't written down?

[KimikosNightmare]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_Rome?wprov=sfla1

This might be of interest. It briefly covers the role of the Vestal Virgins.

[KimikosNightmare]

Sorry posted that twice as page isn't refreshing.

[NiceGerbil]

Pagan is an interesting word.

Are you talking the beliefs in parts of the UK? The Viking gods?

Pagan just means not Christian does it? Or if not how are you using it?

Evidence from around the world shows various really old societies have various things to indicate that women were seen as important. I know this because my DD watches time team again no deep knowledge!