“Sex work is empowering”

[irresistibleoverwhelm]

I was marking a student exam essay today on French culture and the city in the 1860s, and the essay was really good until it suddenly got to historical representations of street prostitutes.

This suddenly diverted into a load of claims that the nineteenth century was full of “moralism”, but that nowadays we know that these “sex workers” were “empowered” by capitalism and by knowing that they were earning money for themselves!

(The texts were explicitly about the dirt and poor health of 1860s street prostitutes living in slums. Definitely NOT some kind of Moulin Rouge man-fantasy about rich courtesans.)

Jesus! Have the wits of today’s young people gone begging? Have they all been totally addled by this sex-positive anti-swerf nonsense? Being a prostitute in nineteenth century was not “empowering”, nor was it a choice. It was nasty, brutal, painful and dangerous, FFS.

This kind of discourse is just pernicious and wrong. We’re going backwards, not forwards.

How will you feedback to the student OP?

The pill. Free from worry about pregnancy. A great thing for women, to be able to control when we get pregnant

Then. Women seen as 100% responsible for contraception. We can have casual sex without risk, so men push boundaries. Pregnancy and babies become seen as woman's choice, men walk away from responsibility with no qualms and even now with little action to get support for their children. Abusers can get young girls put on the pill with seemingly no questions asked eg Rotherham

The push to reduce the stigma, the lack of knowledge etc around female bodies and their reproductive and sexual functions. The clitoris. Women should enjoy it. Etc etc. A big thing for women

Turned into. Sex positive means trying anything and everything. Pressure to do this or that. It's all liberating

Body positivity. Women's bodies come in all shapes and sizes. The pressure to look a certain way causes a lot of harm. Rock your look, love your body etc

Turned to. Love your body, show your body! Pole dancing, burlesque, stripping. Gok wan, take all your clothes off! Now you are a confident modern woman! Porn, lads mags etc. Isn't it great! These are empowered women who show their power by taking their clothes off...

As we've got more access to jobs independence and power, we become more and more objectified. The 'look' for young women now is expensive and time consuming. No coincidence

This rundown of women’s “freedoms” is spot on. I would also add -

Women have much better access to work now, and they can take professional jobs and become high earners.

Turned into - anything which a women does that doesn’t bring in money (raising children/unpaid caring) has no value.

@NiceGerbil I didn’t know it was that bad, with children on OnlyFans and ‘the men got their money back’… is pretty horrifying. I wonder why journalists don’t expose these stories more powerfully. I just thank goodness for your and other voices on these threads - there is a strong but fair voice of reason, care and humanity. One that I don’t often see on any social media threads anymore. But it is here. Protecting the vulnerable.

@nicegerbil Spot on with the ‘empowerment’ of the pill and being free, sexual beings - and now seemingly we must all be shaved porn stars.

@TrifleCat Turned into - anything which a women does that doesn’t bring in money (raising children/unpaid caring) has no value. Again spot on. I am living this one to my cost, having forfeited a blossoming career to care for a disabled child (almost impossible to replicate me with childcare to be honest) and doing this on my own (not supported).

*"Men paying for pics of children on onlyfans

Each time it was really really important Apparently to say that the men got their money back (!!!??)

And no mention of the police being after the men who paid children for pics/bids with nudity / sex acts."*

In these cases were the men who paid the OnlyFans content creators aware they were under 18? Creators need to state and verify they are at least 18 when they register(see link below), if an U18 has found a way to circumvent this and uploaded content where they appear to be at least 18, then how would that be a police matter if the men were genuinely misled into thinking the creator was of age?

onlyfans.com/terms.html
"[to register]you must be at least 18 years old, and you will be required to confirm this;"

Men have been saying oh how was I to know, she looked older etc etc since forever.

Why not Google and read some of the girls stories that they have shared.

There was a situation a while back where s girl who was... 12 or 13. Had someone contact her on watsapp and he persuaded her to send him topless pics.

She thought straight after that was not right and told her mum.

Her mum took her to the police and they warned her she might be prosecuted for sharing indecent images of a child.

There was no mention in the reports of looking for the adult man who had manipulated a female child like that.

On a thread at the time I remember being quite taken aback that half the posts were saying

She shouldn't have been on watsapp
She acted illegally
She should be prosecuted, teach her a lesson and warning to other girls

The history of finding fault with the actions of women and girls when it comes to dodgy/ illegal sexual behaviour from adult men seems to be as popular as ever.

These attitudes lead to things like rotherham. Young girls are seen as sexually knowing, predatory even. Old beyond their years. What chance do grown men stand against that deliberate temptation?

Thank you for that post. Margarita.

'Childline counsellors have come across a number of cases in which under-18s, some of whom are vulnerable, reference their use of OnlyFans. It shared anonymised extracts from counsellor notes with BBC News.

Children using the site who contacted the service reported being victims of prior sexual abuse, while others presented "mental health issues including anger, low self-esteem, self-harm and suicide ideation".

One girl told a counsellor she had been on OnlyFans since she was 13.'

There has to be something wrong with OnlyFans age verification registration process then if so many U18s are signing up to be content creators. If OF are unable to do this job properly then surely they should be shut down?

Given it seems to have happened more than a few times shouldn't OF at least include a warning to potential buyers that they have a poor registration process and some of the creators may be underage?

I do think it's a bit unfair for a porn site to claim the people on it are 18+ when this isn't the case.

"And no mention of the police being after the men who paid children for pics/bids with nudity / sex acts"

To answer the question of why the police aren't involved, it's because if they were all the men would have to do in their defence is refer to OF's terms of service page which states all those registered have verified to be 18.

If OF has underage people selling content and also has one of those "all people depicted are 18+" disclaimers they are effectively allowing men to view and pay for illegal porn and giving them a free legal pass to do so too(whether or not the men are aware of the age).

I can't understand your approach at all tbh.

I think we are unlikely to ever agree.

younger teeenagers for years have been keen to find out about grown up stuff. That's well known. It's a normal part of development from child to adult.

That's why there are laws to protect them around certain things.

Drinking smoking. Sex offence laws. Getting a credit card. Gambling. Loads of stuff.

Your approach seems to be if they break the rules, then any consequences are on them?

If an older man then, gets a 13yo drunk. Has sex with her. He hasn't asked how old she is. Maybe she lied. It's on her.

Men have got away with doing all sorts on the basis they 'looked older' for an awful long time. And the general response is, girls look so grown up these days.

Problem is that girls have 'looked older' for decades. And yet still there's been no shift in the idea of what underage girls are 'supposed' to look like.

This was the problem with Rotherham etc. The victims weren't seen as children being exploited by adults. They were seen as precocious girls, out of control, knowing what they were doing, streetwise and in control. Child prostitutes.

As per the link, the girls doing this often have s history of CSA and/or mental health problems. But you know. They (along with the vast majority of children in the UK) lied to sign up to a site. So it's all on the children/ young teens.

I just can't understand how you think that.

When a 14yo boy signs up to Grindr and meets a man and is persuaded into sex. His fault, right? He lied. End of story. (This has happened plenty of times).

'Given it seems to have happened more than a few times shouldn't OF at least include a warning to potential buyers that they have a poor registration process and some of the creators may be underage?'

Erm are you joking?!

What do YOU think would happen if they told that to their customers?

You can't be that naive.

Lovely. Another thread where people are defending poor men who are abusing or looking at pornographic images of underaged girls. 🤮

Asking for pics and vids presumably to order.

That's the whole point of OF isn't it?

I don't think they see themselves as a porn site do they?

I'm really interested Margarita in why you think OF saying there are underage girls (and boys) selling sexual images and videos (to order) on the site would act as a warning rather than an incentive to those paying for them?

Also why you think they would ever do that, as it's illegal and admitting it would presumably result in some kind of consequence?

I know you're not naive.

I also believe that these are your genuine thoughts. So I'm really interested to understand.

"Your approach seems to be if they break the rules, then any consequences are on them?"

No not the girls at all, I mean OnlyFans. Whoever is responsible for the website itself.

"I'm really interested Margarita in why you think OF saying there are underage girls (and boys) selling sexual images and videos (to order) on the site would act as a warning rather than an incentive to those paying for them?"

I'm not sure what you mean?

On the first thing.

'
In these cases were the men who paid the OnlyFans content creators aware they were under 18? Creators need to state and verify they are at least 18 when they register(see link below), if an U18 has found a way to circumvent this and uploaded content where they appear to be at least 18, then how would that be a police matter if the men were genuinely misled into thinking the creator was of age?'

So if a child lies about their age. Which we all know they do and have done for yonks. Then all bets are off?

The good news is that's often how it works with real life stuff. She said she was 16 your honour!
Yes she is well developed. You poor chap being duped like that. Not guilty!

@MargaritaPie

"I'm really interested Margarita in why you think OF saying there are underage girls (and boys) selling sexual images and videos (to order) on the site would act as a warning rather than an incentive to those paying for them?"

I'm not sure what you mean?

How can you not know what I mean?

Assuming that could and would put a warning on their site that underage girls and boys are selling explicit pics and vids on there.

Do you think that would

Put customers off

Or

Draw customers in.

I think you know the answer, surely?

if the men were genuinely misled into thinking the creator was of age? this makes me completely rage if I’m honest. Oh poor men, they abused a woman… exploited her sexually… oh no it’s a girl how was I to know I was abusing a girl and not a woman… I want my money back.

Just further proves my point that all exploitation and abuse is just that. Exploitation and abuse. Of course there are going to be young girls on that, because it’s all about exploitation and it will never stop at 18.

It doesn’t stop on porn sites (supposedly over 18) it doesn’t on OnlyFans (supposedly over 18) it doesn’t anywhere abuse happens. Because abuse targets the vulnerable. ABUSERS target the vulnerable. They don’t care whether it’s an adult or a child. Because it’s abuse, not empowerment or a ‘fair contract’ between two equal people in some private sphere. And male abusive sexual wants (the ‘buyer’) - will always in a free market create a demand for the ‘best product’ which is younger and more vulnerable girls. Always.

That’s why it all stinks!

I'm waiting for margarita to have s think about what would happen if they had a warning saying.

There are underage/ children on this site. You might get pics/ videos that you order and pay for, from s teen or child, if you're not careful!

......

....

@MargaritaPie forgive me but aren’t you also in favour of legalising prostitution so that it will be easier for both independent women and sex trafficking gangs to sell sex? And massively easier for men to buy sex?

I know that it is another thread but don’t you think that both these positions favour men and sex buyers at the expense of the most vulnerable in society?

*"Assuming that could and would put a warning on their site that underage girls and boys are selling explicit pics and vids on there.

Do you think that would

Put customers off Or Draw customers in."*

Maybe my opinion of men is a little too high but I like to think the % of men who are pedos are in the minority.

"aren’t you also in favour of legalising prostitution so that it will be easier for both independent women and sex trafficking gangs to sell sex? And massively easier for men to buy sex?"

No. I think decriminalisation would be best; that's the model generally supported by orgs re human rights, health, anti-STD, anti-trafficking, migrant rights and sex workers themselves (by "sex workers" I mean adults who sell sex btw).

So the UK is good (expect the illlegal points in the second paragraph)? And Holbeck was a great area, too bad they closed it down?

And we should in the UK allow brothels, soliciting in public spaces and pimping?

I guarantee precisely zero sex workers would still do it if they won the lottery

I wouldn't continue any job if I won the lottery.