Should England follow Scotland and make all period products free?

[stumbledin]

I must admit I didn't know that Scotland had done this. Not sure if it is just a vote taken but not yet implemented. It was mentioned in a newspaper article:

... doing away with the tampon tax had made a particular difference to reusable products which are pricier to begin with.

But Ms Coryton voiced surprise that England had not followed the lead of Scotland, which became the world’s first country to make period products free for everyone last November after a lengthy campaign.

“It is crazy we haven’t,” she reflects. “I think we will because Scotland does everything first. It is crazy not to. This scheme helps people in period poverty, helps to end period stigma, and helps to stop people get health complications, as a result of being forced to use tissues and socks.”

Research by charity Plan International found three in 10 girls in the UK have struggled to afford or access period products during the Covid-19 public health emergency – with over half of them having to resort to toilet paper instead of proper products. One in five said their periods have been more difficult to cope with due to not having enough toilet roll.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tampon-tax-period-products-b1867922.html

@Babdoc the council I just checked gives out reusable pads so hopefully that quells your fears about plastic waste? Also I know mooncups are available.

However I'm not sure why it's poor people specifically who mustn't use disposable plastic? Surely a nationwide campaign to move to reusable is more appropriate (bearing in mind the problems poorer people might have with washing, which middle income people running a washing machine daily perhaps wouldn't?) Also bearing in mind what companies like Mooncup etc are saying, that despite donating the products they are finding the products aren't always wanted.

Then there is also the question of... can we really say that women and girls shouldn't be provided SP because of the plastic waste, when I can walk into ANY supermarket right now and see fruit and veg covered in the stuff? Is female hygiene really the next thing to tackle after straws (arguably it should be - but not until we've done the work that needs to be done to de-stigmatise periods and everything surrounding them). As a 29yo women I have no problem cleaning out a mooncup... my 11 year old daughter? No chance.

And again re stigma... if back in your mum's day everyone was doing that then it would have been much more likely to cross people's minds. Are girls even being educated on the use of "rags" these days? If all their friends are using pads and tampons, would it even occur to them?

winched, my main point was that the lack of commercial sanpro is not an acceptable reason for missing school. Previous generations coped fine with diy sanpro.
The truancy officer would have pursued those families in my schooldays!
I also don’t see why beleaguered taxpayers, already having to fund the pandemic furlough, should have to provide free sanpro to millionaires.
Benefits should be targeted, and that means providing a fair level of universal credit, minimum wage etc, not handouts to people who don’t need them, for individual products, as a way of scoring woke cookies.

I think its a really hard decision tbh.

I think its great when its available for free in schools so girls can attend lessons without worrying.

However it wouldn't deal with the underlying poverty.developed countries like England should not have anyone living in such conditions that they can't afford a quid for some own brand towels. Wages and support should be enough to love om and cms should do theur jobs and get non resident parents to pay up.

I also worry that constantly giving stuff away for free means no ones ever held accountable for neglectful behaviour. Such as not providing San Pro for your child.

I get though there's no way to separate those people out from those In poverty so it's easier to just provide the stuff.

my main point was that the lack of commercial sanpro is not an acceptable reason for missing school. Previous generations coped fine with diy sanpro

Women also died in huge numbers in childbirth in the past, antibiotics didn't exist, there was no treatment for cancer- should we all accept those things even thought there are solutions to those problems because previous generations 'coped fine'?

I'm sure rags worked as well as options available now why should anyone from a poorer background make do with rags when we have far better sanpro these days? I personally would prefer poverty to be tackled rather than these schemes but it's better than nothing.

Oh and I will make no apologies whatsoever for using tampons and disposable pantyliners. As winched said, look at the amount of plastic waste just in a supermarket fruit and veg aisle. I recycle as much as possible, I haven't been on a plane for 19 years, I have a car but barely drive it. I won't be made to feel guilty for only being comfortable with using disposable pantyliners and tampons.

@Jellycatspyjamas

Period poverty is just poverty though.

Indeed and this is yet another example of woke window dressing by the Scottish Government. Much easier to provide free san pro than recognise the utter scandal of a wealthy society where there’s a population who can’t afford basic supples, never mind actually do anything to change that.

There’s no bandwagon they won’t jump on.

This. Our school had a slightly baffled/irritated Parent Council meeting where the teachers asked what we coudl do with all the unnecessary, unused sanpro they now had, and the grants for such that are unspendable.

I think in the end, we decided to donate to some countries where they might have been needed. We are in an area that has quite a lot of deprivation, fwiw, so it's not that there isn't poverty, it's just that this particular thing is not what's needed. Ditto breakfast clubs, apparently, and free school lunches. Not used. They sound good but I am not convinced they are actually useful schemes.

• I'm in Scotland, sorry, should have clarified.

I think its great when its available for free in schools so girls can attend lessons without worrying.

To be honest, any school I’ve been in has had access to free san pro for girls, usually via the office or medical room.

Ditto breakfast clubs, apparently, and free school lunches. Not used. They sound good but I am not convinced they are actually useful schemes

Surely those things rely on the children being there? I can see why it went unused when the issues families had would more likely be things like being able to get there on time due to chaotic working patterns and money for petrol/bus fare ? And what do you do with the other kids not at that school once you drag them all out of bed earlier than usual and don't have tine to get home again befire they go where they need to go.

Is that what happened? I don't get this whole " just throw money at the problem" thing. It must all go far deeper ?

@Sittinginthesand

Period poverty is just poverty though. This is a distraction from the real issue. Of course sanpro should be free in schools and hospitals. But should we also make loo paper, toothpaste, soap free? Give kids a toothbrush every couple of months? (I think this would be a great idea). I’m very cynical about ‘period poverty’ campaigns, I worry that it’s virtue signaling and gets more attention than other things largely because it’s a catchy phrase. ‘Dental hygiene poverty’ doesn’t have the same ring.

Exactly this. Why have periods become this big political thing? It's a bodily function with neutral moral status.

Poverty is poverty. Sanitary protection is a necessary hygiene item, like toothbrushes or shampoo.

scully, I don't know, really. They set up a breakfast club and nobody came, so it was cancelled. The school's in the middle of an estate, so most kids are within easy walking distance. Not sure if the school looked further into it - they'd expected it to be used.

I also don’t see why beleaguered taxpayers, already having to fund the pandemic furlough, should have to provide free sanpro to millionaires.
Benefits should be targeted, and that means providing a fair level of universal credit, minimum wage etc, not handouts to people who don’t need them, for individual products, as a way of scoring woke cookies.

But why would any millionaire go to the effort of walking (or driving) to their local council offices to collect SP for free to save a few pounds when they could just go to the shops or tell whoever does their grocery shop to pick it up?

We've been giving out free condoms too but I can't imagine why anyone who can afford them would bother with the hassle of going out of the way to a separate location and not just picking them up with the rest of their shopping or ordering online?

I would literally have to walk passed Tesco (and 3 convenience stores) to get to the council building, so would never do it (and I'm by no means a millionaire). BUT... god forbid I ever died and my DDs ended up with a dad who didn't have the sense to give them money every month, or to buy it at the shops himself... then I'd be glad they could walk the extra 10 mins and stock up for free.

I had a friend who grew up with only a dad in high school and have vivid memories of her asking for money and him being all "what for??" and her getting embarrassed. It shouldn't be embarrassing but that's teen girls for you. Just by having this in the headlines it's probably put the issue on people's radars and I wonder if that Dad would have just left £5/£10 in her room every month if he'd read one of the headlines in the paper.

People who can afford these products really are not going around grabbing bag fulls of these tampons that are placed in baskets . Really they are not . they are just placed in certain places where Women and Girls use them if they are caught out . I do really think it is a good thing .

I find some of the comments on here baffling.

One article from which ever paper it is is hardly "periods have become a big politcal issue". Why it is being discussed is that women who care about other women and girls, realised that the impact of poverty on women and girls has particular consequences.

One of which is that young girls were missing school. And as seems to have been clarified by those on FWR in Scotland various places like schools and hospitals are (meant to be?) making period products available.

How many generations of poor girls do you think should miss school because you think the bigger issue if poverty so they should just wait until poverty is solved. Wake up to what is going on in this country. Poverty is increasing. That's the sort of attitude that led to the 2 child benefit cap.

And the totally and absolutely absurd suggestion that a young girl who is suffering the inability to be able to easily buy the products she needs, should resort to some victorian era method of coping with menstrual blood is quite frankly bonkers.

You really want to make a girl in this situation even more vulnerable to being pointed out and humilated?

I can just see it. Everyone turning up for school and a few girls will be their with their laundry bags so as to take their bloody rags home. Because you can bet they wont to rinsing them out in the school.

What an unpleasant and punitive notion.

@winched

Who will pay for it though, ultimately? The govt is amassing debt on a gigantic scale.

The gov have shown they can make money available whenever they want, though.

I'm not sure how anyone can even ask the 'who will pay for it' question when the same gov scrapped stamp duty during the same period, which ultimately did nothing except drive already inflated house prices even higher.

Does anyone want to live in a world where the government subsidises the property market but not women who can't access sanitary products?

AFAIK it's just available in places like schools, libraries (poss workplaces in future) etc for you to take if you need it. If you don't need it, you go to the shop like you've always done.

I can't speak for the quality having never used it, but I know someone mentioned there's mooncups etc available which could be an option for people who can't use certain brands of tampons.

Ultimately I think it's better than doing nothing at all. The amount of times I've been caught out, struggled to find a £1 coin for a machine, found the £1 but the stupid machine was empty and swallowed the money anyway, and had to resort to the horrible toilet roll trick

That never happened when I worked in a place where we had a communal stash in the ladies room and we all just replenished whenever we were at the shops. Tampons, pads, deodorant, nicer hand-soap etc. If a business is paying for toilet roll and hand soap, why not feminine hygiene products?

Agree with all of this. We find plenty of money to fund all manner of extravagant things that benefit a small subset of rich people or are actively harmful (I don't agree with nuclear bombs).

I live in Scotland and I think it is brilliant. I taught abroad for years and when I came back I was amazed when I found a free varied stock of products in the bathroom of a university. The Italian students who were visiting commented on how fantastic it was for them too.

The year before this law came in a student of mine got her first period. I had to sneak out to the shop to buy products for her that day. Just a year later the campus was fully stocked and all for free.

@stumbledin have to agree with you about some of the comments. I think sanpro should be available for girls and young women at school.

There’s a sanitary products scheme were I work (England). They are available for students for free.
And no one fills their bags. They just take what they need.

Really surprised by the level of negative sentiment on this. I think it’s marvellous, and would have loved to have it available when I was a teen.

It’s not just about poverty, but about families where menstrual products are withheld, restricted, used to control pr humiliate, or just plain taboo.

It’s not free.

It’s taxpayer funded.

If you think it’s a Good use of taxes - fine. If on the other hand you think the govt should not be spending your money on single use sanitary items for people who could afford to pay for them - not fine.

Surely it's not a choice ? I mean we can support products available for girls at school given that a good education is one of the best chance of getting out of poverty but still recognise its a band aid on a broken.leg .

It would be brilliant if all period products are free, I mean they're not a luxury and sometimes it can be hard to find the spare cash for some - if you need special brands or two pads at once it can get expensive.

Agree with this
If I can't afford toothbrushes / toothpaste / soap for my daughters, of course it's horrendous and will no doubt lead to health issues down the line. But if I can't afford sanitary protection for them...? A) it's a specific type of poverty that only affects women and girls B) evidence shows they miss school.

@motherofcod

It’s not just about poverty, but about families where menstrual products are withheld, restricted, used to control pr humiliate, or just plain taboo

Good point, never even thought of that

Not sure why this thread has been left on the "new" feminist chat board when it is so obviously about sex.

And begining to wonder if @MNHQ needs a lesson on biology.

I might ask for it to be moved to "Sex and Gender" as leaving in on feminist chat makes it look like it isn't a political issue.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Surely it's not a choice ? I mean we can support products available for girls at school given that a good education is one of the best chance of getting out of poverty but still recognise its a band aid on a broken.leg .

this is an easy virtue-signal. So the Scotgov can demonstrate graciously how Feminist they are, by waving free tampax at anyone who identifies as a menstrual bleeder, but not actually address things like ... oooh, our woeful education standards, that are slipping further and further as we speak, or the appalling rape conviction rate that includes sexual assault and rape IN SCHOOLS, or the push to include gender neutral toilets in schools - we can have as many free sanpro in the toilets as you want, but girls are avoiding drinking all day so they don't have to go to the toilet.

I'm in Scotland. I think this is a good temporary measure, until (if?) wider measures to tackle poverty could be brought in.

But I would prefer to see a system of universal basic income, or similar, instead of specific freebies. This applies to things like the free bus pass too, I'm not just targetting sanpro. The bus pass is actually much more unfair, because poor people in rural areas with no busses can't use it, while rich city dwellers hop on and off busses freely. There are lots of examples of things handed out free which are just basic living costs which should be covered by the min wage/benefits if they were sufficient to live on.

I’ve always been a bit about making period poverty a thing. As others say - it’s just poverty - calling out period poverty almost seems to fetishise tackling poverty.

I think there is an issue with some parents refusing to provide sanitary products for their daughters (or not offering and embarrassment making it so that the daughter won’t ask), forcing some girls to find money for a basic necessity that boys do not have to bother with and for which they may not have funds at all. So I’m quite pro-period products being available at school without too much gatekeeping (I accept schools can have problems with behaviour that mean just having them in a basket in the loos may not be feasible). But I think this a woefully common form of neglect, not a special form of poverty.