Thoughts on 'modesty' shorts please

[getoffthesofa]

A few girls at my DD2's primary school seem to be wearing these She has asked if she can have some too as she really likes to wear her school summer dresses and is also quite active, running and climbing and leaping and cartwheels etc (also I suspect there may be some karate style kicks going on!).

I strongly object to schools (or anyone) suggesting, or insisting that girls wear these shorts under their dresses, as I do not believe that the knickers of small girls should be funny/sexy/rude/offensive etc (it is essentially victim blaming and the conversation always seems to revert to the excuse that men and boys are able to help themselves being aroused). But she has asked, and if it makes her feel more confident, able to move around as freely and vigorously as she likes, then that can't be a bad thing? My DD1 (yr 8) has also requested them - she wears her skirts short as many of the girls do and now we are out of the tights season I think she too feels exposed (she wears black shortie-knickers anyway).

Yes I know she could just wear, culottes, trousers or shorts, but she refuses too. She loves her summer dresses and I think they are comfortable (the modesty shorts seem rather to defeat the point of feeling cool and breezy round your legs, but there we are)

I hate that they are called "modesty" shorts - what decade are we living in? I hate that small girls can't just dress as they like without feeling looked at and sexualised (though they may not it express it that way). I hate that there is a product cashing on this and I hate that the intention is that girls should cover up instead of men wearing these bloody things on their heads if they can't manage not to objectify or be "offended". And I hate that there is never a suggestion that in a gender neutral uniform boys could wear the dresses too and then everybody's pants would be waving around. But also I want my girls to feel safe and happy.

Do I buy them or do I help my girls blaze a trail for short-free pant freedom? (also do these things go over your usual knickers or do they replace your knickers??)

I would like to make a stand for the skirt. I absolutely always wear skirts and when I was at school would have hated having to wear trousers.

As many girls might feel, just as many girls might hate wearing skirts and want to wear trousers. However many schools still force girls to wear skirts and don't allow trousers.

There is a creeping trend in female clothing for everything to be less substantial and reveal more of the body.

Indeed. There are so many examples of this, t-shirts, tops and not least shorts - see the difference in shorts marketed to boys and shorts marketed to girls. There's nothing wrong with anyone wanting to wear such clothing of either sex but it's particularly girls for whom clothing is far less substantial.

And I am saying the opposite of things being worthwhile because they are validated by boys - I am saying that if femininity was genuinely validated and valued, men would do it too

No you were not. You have been pretty disparaging about your daughter's preferences and have said " you have to work on the dresses".

The AntiGrinch set out several reasons why she prefers skirts or dresses whereas all you seem to be doing is disparaging your daughter's preferences.

I am saying that if femininity was genuinely validated and valued, men would do it too

If only!

DD1 (10) wears these as she spends most of her playtime upside down. They are not compulsory at our primary, but if you don't wear shorts you gave to stay the right way up. I buy hers in Asda (I think £4 for 2 pairs) available in Navy or white.

The boys short style pants are too loose around the leg in my opinion, at least for DD2 as she hates tight pants. I saw her bits on display when sat legs akimbo. As I select her underwear in the mornings, I give her traditional pants for school.

No shorts or culottes allowed for our uniform (for girls)

They are not compulsory at our primary, but if you don't wear shorts you gave to stay the right way up

So there's a rule about "staying the right way up" that hinges on what underwear the children are wearing!?

I suppose not if the girls choose to wear trousers (which is an option)

Ah right. Well that's something. I've always found primary schools difficult about trousers for girls.

It still seems odd to have a rule. You'd need a "can I turn upside down" flowchart.

You'd need a "can I turn upside down" flowchart.

Brilliant! And a great way of pointing out the intrinsic stupidity of such rules.

I don't like the name "modesty" because that implies a judgement on behaviour, otoh I see nothing wrong with the actual item. I'd say they were practical, as most children (girls and boys) get self-conscious at some point and don't want people to see their (thin) underwear which might expose more.

At our primary there's a climbing frame which all the children use after school so there a lot if hanging upside down and showing of underwear, some wear cycling shorts under their summer dresses , some wear leggings (full) - there's quite a few knickers seen - we're lucky that anything goes. Should add that the adults are stood all around the climbing frame so as children get older they or their parents might not want them showing knickers when playing.

^ all the children can use - they don't have to.

No problem at all. Boys get to wear clothes that conceal their underwear, why shouldn't girls?

My dd (8) wears shorts - not modesty shorts just school uniform shorts - she doesn't like skirts or dresses and she is uncomfortable with sitting crosslegged in a skirt and showing her pants. She finds shorts and skorts more comfortable and practical. I am happy with this as frankly the school summer dresses are impractical and pale and easily stained. She prefers to dress practically, not modestly, at home she prefers to be dressed only in pants and a dressing gown so she is not ashamed just irritated by unwanted skirt shenanigans.

My DD 8 refuses to wear 'girls' clothes at all. She finds them impractical and uncomfortable. She has worn boys boxer shorts ever since she saw them in the shops and said they looked more comfy. She has nothing that a 'girl' should (?) wear in her wardrobe. No dresses, party shoes... nothing.

Over the years I will admit i have struggled with her choice of clothes but now i am very proud of her. She has taught me a lot about feminism

But back to the original point. I don't have a problem with girls choosing to wear shorts under dresses. The 'girls' pants are cut so badly that vulvas are constantly on display at school. Seeing pants I don't care about, seeing vulvas I do.

It would be better if all girls clothes were cut better. Hold up an age 8 boys t-shirt next to a girls age 8 t-shirt and you can see the girls is nipped in and shorter (often flimsier material too - is that because girls are expected to play more delicately?!). The shorts are also way shorter. It's ridiculous.

My kids wear school gym shorts (under skirts). To conceal their underwear if they are upside down on monkey bars and keep warm (we are in Scotland). I'm happy from a practical perspective about both reasons. I If other girls wore trousers/ shorts I suspect they'd wear them but they don't want to stick out.

I'd be less skeptical about them if gym skirts werent so miniscule. They are just shorts. I used to wear shorts under a skirt, and someone called me 'Scout' after the girl in To Kill A Mockingbird, who does the same thing.
We used to be ridiculed and called tomboys for this kind of thing. I used to be ordered to take off my shorts as they weren't uniform. Now girls and their clothing are being sexualized. Its still shaming girls whichever version you get.

I've never heard of "modesty shorts" but I did by DD (3) some small gym shorts to wear under her summer dresses. It's much more practical at the park for example, when going down the slides.

That's very true regarding clothing ittooshallpass. It starts at such a young age and continues that comparable clothing is far more revealing for girls and young women. T-shirts, shorts for girls being far shorter and tighter and so forth. I find it uncomfortable that this kind of thing is marketed as being fashionable, pushing girls towards clothing which gives far less coverage in a way boys would never be (then girls and women are often derided for wearing clothing deemed revealing anyway).

Your daughter sounds fantastic - it's great she has the confidence to wear whatever she wants and feels comfortable in and has made those choices for herself!

Lots of the girls wear summer dress material play suits from M and S. I think they are fab. No restrictive worry about showing knickers, looks summery and girly. No wearing 3 layers over your genitals.

www.marksandspencer.com/pure-cotton-checked-playsuit/p/p60091721?extid=ps_gglpla_UK_Gen_,Kids%20_PLAKids%20--%3E%20School%20Uniform%20--%3E%20Summer%20School%20Uniform%20--%3E%20Girls%20gingham%20dresses_M&S%20Girls?%20Pure%20Cotton%20Checked%20Playsuit%20GREEN%205-6%20Years&s_kwcid=AL!2750!3!190731798132!!!g!310038120843!&device=t&cvosrc=ppc%20shopping.google.Kids%20%3E%20School%20Uniform%20%3E%20Summer%20School%20Uniform%20%3E%20Girls%20gingham%20dresses&cvo_pid=42464242235&ef_id=VJx3NQAAAVrdioD0:20170618121114:s&pdpredirect

I don't think girls should be expected to wear anything to look "girly". Nothing wrong with any such clothing but there's no reason for girls to appear as such.

It's ridiculous and sexist that some schools, eg private schools, still don't allow girls to wear (just) shorts or trousers.

Noloveofmine - I agree 100% but lots of girls want to be girly and refuse to wear the 'boys shorts' I thought this was a great compromise for those girly girls who do exist. I certainly have no personal expectation other than girls should be dressed in practical comfortable clothes.