Could you talk to me about PND? might I have it?

[Pavlov]

I have never been one to admit I struggle with anything. certainly not my emotions. I am in charge. End of. I was when I dealt with my mum' diagnosis of cancer. I dealt with my emotions when she died, when DD was 6 months. I dealt with the death of my dad 4 months later. And my wedding. Dr said at that point perhaps I had some elements of PTSD as I had insomnia. But I was like 'nooo, I am fine' and i really was. So i thought.

So, second baby. pregnancy a fucking hard slog. I had hyperemisis. I had a cock of a pretend builder ruin my house while I was pg. Dh lost his job.

And my newborn was the best, the most handsome, happy little boy in the whole entire world. And he did not sleep. Fed hourly. DD plays up a bit, but nothing major. Not really, nothing I would not expect from her age, with a new brother. She loves him. She loves me. She loves daddy but argues a lot with him (or him her?).

I have started to acknowledge that perhaps my behaviour/my coping is not so great.

DH and I argue. Normal for lots. Normal for us. But we argue about everything. He says I am quick to temper. I am. He says I am up and down. I am. I am bloody knackered, what does he expect?!! But, he says I am oversensitive, where i used to not be. I get shouty a lot. I took that for granted with two kids!

But. what I am feeling. I flit from very happy to very tearful. I flit from the world being wonderful and my family being wonderful to it all being so fucking hard and it seems to be all falling apart. I flit from seeing my DH as a man who loves me and is trying his hardest and who is a great dad to a man who won't help me fix the mess i feel i am in. I sometimes want to laugh so loudly I burst, and that makes me feel tearful. I then feel so bloody down i want to cry. And I do. I feel like I bitch and nag and moan. I hate the way I look. I am short tempered with DD, and even when I am doing it, I am saying to myself 'stop that, she is just a little girl, she is not doing it on purpose, but I want to blame her almost, for that little thing she is doing, that is making me feel like punching a wall, buts its not her. It is something, and then I hug her and I say sorry and I feel terrible.

DD asks me sometimes 'what is the matter mama? why is your face like that? do you have a happy face to show me? Show me the face I like (i say that to her when she is upset)

I have insomnia. I blame DS bad sleep pattern, but even when he sleeps now, i don't. I don't like seeing people. I hate the phone ringing, it makes me want to hide. I force myself to leave the house.

Is this PND? Really? Or just normal overtired mummy. I can't tell any more. It is harder this time. Much much harder, Not the kids, not my cub, not my princess. but me. everything else feels harder.

No-one sees this though. On the outside all is fine and dandy, except I look like shit.

Sorry, i poured my soul out a bit there .

Pavlov that's great advice from your friend. When I can't sleep at night DH says to me 'go to your favourite place, describe it to me' and this calms me down (apparently two nights ago I actually did fall asleep while he was talking to me about my beach). My favourite place is the beach the DSs and I go to a lot. We went there at Easter and I cried when we got there because I'd been using it as my 'special place' for whenever I was having a paddy at 3am for not being able to sleep. It sounds like you've bene through so much. You need to be kind to yourself. A lot of people here have helped me by telling me not to put so much pressure on myself to be well and coping but to accept that times are hard sometimes in your life and to realise that this is one of those times and it's normal to need help. That advice has really helped me.

bbl thing is, it does not feel like i have been through that much. When i write it down, it sounds like a lot, but actually, going through it, does not feel like much. I guess perhaps that is will's point, not feeling it. I guess it means I sort of deny the feelings so it is not that bad, but they are there somewhere.

I am no good at asking for help. I never do! DH calls me a martyr a lot I laugh but i know its not a good thing. I just don't know how, or what help would, well help? Talking is pointless, drugs I don't want, when i was younger, i dealt with my stress by sleeping. So its almost like my coping mechanism is gone with not sleeping. I used to sleep for hours when stressed. My mother used to know if there was a problem as I would go to bed and sleep.

Canoeing is good for my psyche. I went out today, not for long as it was very cold and choppy my friend did not have her wetsuit with her (went in a canadian). Afterwards, I went for a bob about in the sea on my own, taking in the view, being far from everyone (it is a huge beach when tide is out). It has helped.

And talking it out to you guys has helped. I say talking is pointless, but its not when its a conversation. When others give their thoughts, experiences and ideas. I can't get that from friends as they have nothing to say on it really, and not from a professional, as it is too, i don't know, clinical, or not a conversation.

Pav, I am going to go back and reread your posts again but what screamed out at me was you justifying why you shouldn't have PND. Anyone can have it, anyone at all. It is an illness and being clever and rich doesn't stop you having it anymore than being poor and means you will have it.

I think you need to stop trying to be super woman. Give your DH a hug, apologise for being narky and say you are just so shattered. Maybe think about napping in the day while he has the children and then at the weekends take it in turns to have an hour to yourself without the children. Don't lose sight of you as a person instead of just Mum.

fab its probably part of the problem. Not any time to be anything other than mum. I went out for a paddle today and feel so much brighter. Eyes still on stalks but brighter. And superwoman, blimey, not even close . It is not that I don't think i should have PND, or that I don't have it. I just simply have no clue if I do or not. Or if this is usual (it was not with DD, but i was busy busy busy visiting sick mum then arranging a wedding), or something else going on.

Problem with lie-ins, DD won't let me. She screams and cries and wakes bear cub up, and me up, when she wakes at 6:15am and asks her to not come in. So she comes in for a kiss and often wakes up the cub, i feed him then I am awake so cannot get back to sleep.

However, we have a plan for tomorrow. We have pre-arranged with her, that she will make pancakes with daddy as soon as he has had a cup of tea in the morning (and between me and him, he will do this even if it is 6:30am) and they will both let me sleep. She has agreed that she can only make pancakes if mummy is not woken up. It will be a surprise for her to wake up to pancakes, but means she cannot have a mummy hug til after the pancakes are made. Watch this space

Pav, I feel for you, it's horribly unnerving. I used to run a department and manage a P&L. I too was "in control".

Then on maternity leave I found myself crying for absolutely no reason. The phone would ring and I would be frightened to answer it (wtf). I started waking up at 3am every morning despite being exhausted. I got more and more tired. I decided dp & ds would be better off without me and considered how to achieve that. I have never felt so lost or rootless. It was very weird.

Like you, I lost my mum at the same time, like you I was given anti-depressants and just couldn't take them, it felt like that would be the start of the end. I understand completely why you don't want them, although everybody tells me they are very good.

In the end, I forced myself to go and swim every morning, I made my sister ring me every day so I had to answer the phone. And I gave up alcohol completely because it seemed to make things worse. (but not coffee )Things are settling down now and I'm coping fine but you have to accept that it takes a while. My ds is 21 months

kathy i don't answer the phone. I just don't do it. I really dislike it. If Dh makes me answer it, i say something like 'oh hi? you ok? er, DH is here, hang on' and pass it over. Whoever it is! Then 'go to the loo' so he can't make me talk to them! I ignore it if he is not here. When it rings, i feel anxious, not happy someone is calling. I feel annoyed.

I like to swim too. I should try that, as it is easier to do than canoe every day! I could even swim in the sea everyday with my fancy ass wetsuit. Oh, i might even do that! it is free!

I drink alcohol a couple of times a week. Not much as breastfeeding, although admittedly that is mostly what stops me having another one. Coffee though, i drink far too much and need to cut down.

omg kathy you have got me thinking. We have a lido here where i live. Open all year round, it is free, it is sea water. They have a lengths pool. I have a winter wetsuit! I am going to go.

Thanks!

Hi Pavlov. How long since your dc was born?

DD is almost 4, DS is 24 weeks today.

Well try swimming if you like it. And hang on to the bit of you that knows you are sane and capable and it will all pass. Sunshine helps me too. And the occasional square of plain chocolate

Pavlov I recognise so much of what's in your posts - not the same circumstances exactly I really know about that being in control thing and feeling disconnected from reality and not sure which of opposing emotions are right or real. I am having similar issues with my sister. And I hate the phone too. It's because I can't control phone conversations (like you can with email) and I feel trapped and panicky. (I had a dysfunctional/abusive childhood and my response has always been to be massively independent and "in charge".)

My second baby is a few months old and I have really felt I'm coping fine, because I'm so on top of things and so in control, how could I not be coping? But my GP has been really concerned and kept badgering me about was I OK, was I feeling down, did I need help. I couldn't see where she was coming from even though several friends have asked the same thing! I've finally realised now that I have been having this cut-off feeling and a feeling that I just have to get stuff done and manage everything and then it will be OK, while I'm actually emotionally a bit all over the place and hadn't even fully registered it. I think I had imagined PND was all about feeling completely hopeless and staring into space. I think actually it can be more subtle than that.

I have been referred to a psychiatric service and we'll see what they say but I don't feel I'm being pushed into medication - it's more about being in touch with how I feel and what I need IYSWIM, and talking it over might help with that. Just becoming more aware of it has helped me relax a bit I think. If you chat to your GP you might find it doesn't have to mean any great changes or anything swinging into action - it might just help with getting perspective etc.

marineiguana that is interesting. I sort of thought I would know if i had it. But i have no clue.

I have had a relatively dysfunctional upbringing, but not as much so as my other siblings who are older. and i sort of guessed most people have some dysfunction, of one kind or another, none of my friends have 'normal' families. All on the surface normal but different issues going on. Just different families. I never even considered by upbringing dysfunctional til i was older.

Yes I think most families have their ishoos but it's also possible to play down what you have been through. As a "coper" extraordinaire I've often found that when I tell people about my family/upbringing they are more shocked than I expect - I am so used to making out to myself that it wasn't all THAT bad IYSWIM. But the fact is, managing it is still an ongoing thing for me, really - it's not something you really put behind you - and at times of stress the cracks can appear. In your case you've had recent bereavements and other stresses too. I think you need to find a way to look after yourself, whatever that means for you.

Pav a friend of mine told me ages ago that if you think you have PND you probably don't, if you don't know, then you probably do. At the time I thought 'wtf does that mean?' as surely if you are feeling crap you know something is wrong but now I know what she means. I keep saying 'I know I have anxiety, I know I can't sleep' but I very rarely say 'PND' or if I do I say 'I know I was diagnosed with mild PND' as if putting the onus on the GP rather than acknowledging it. It's strange, isn't it? I also used to use sleep as a getaway from anxiety and troubles and now it is biting me back by saying 'ha!' It's bloody frustrating! The swimming sounds like a fantastic idea for you Pav. It won't work for me as there really is literally no time in the day for me to do anything by myself with three DSs and working freelance but I can dream My outlet is painting so I need to try to find time to paint every day perhaps. Kathy your post is encouraging. It will get better!

Just my 2p worth. It probably matters to the professionals whether you have PND or PTSD, or just plain tiredness, but for you the D is just D. I had something very similar last year; PTSD on top of chronic stress. Pure joy, ain't it? Especially when you can't sleep. I avoided anti-depressants by a hairs-breadth. Alcohol and caffiene seriously make things worse. I know that coffee is delicious but if you are at that stage it can take you that one step over the edge. For me it took the insomnia and up and downness and just accelerated them enough to make life REALLY sh*t instead of just a bit cope-ably tough. Also I think it can be passed into breastmilk? Not much, but enough to cause grumpiness and wakefulness in the first few months.

If you take it down do it slowly though! Caffeine headaches and bellyaches are ouchy.

I don't buy the if you think you have it you don't, if you don't you do.

I don't buy the 'if you think you have it you don't' bit but the other way around I do see.

Hey all.

Today I am feeling much better, as I did what I said I would to Kathy and I went for a swim! I am going again tomorrow, with a friend hopefully to go bodyboarding, but if not, then on my own.

It was really nice, to just lie back in the sea and look up at the sky. Then swim (seemed to be on the spot although it hurt !) and use some energy and get fresh air. It has cleared some cobwebs.

I did not sleep great last night, and I am not expecting it to be any different tonight, but baby steps.

I think, I won't try to define whatever it is going on with me with a name, not PND, or PTSD or over tired mama, just I am feeling low and I need to sort it. If I find that making some changes does not help me feel any better, then I will consider chatting with the gp. I guess knowledge is power so if I know i am feeling crap then thats a good start?

Pav you sound like me a couple of years ago. Holding it together, stroppy one minute, crying the next, lost touch with all family, just couldn't be arsed with anythng except the kids. And them only some of the time.

It took a huge blow-up with DH, and me walking out for a trial separation to realise when my probs had started: when my DS2 was a few months old. And he was now 4!! The whole time since then he had been born had become a blur: I didn't remember parties, holidays, birthdays, etc. Doctor said "probably PND, try citalopram for a bit, see if it helps". They were bloody marvellous! I never wanted to take ADs but I don't think my poor DH would have gone on supporting me if I hadn't done something about my behaviour. And it was such a relief to abdicate all responsibility for my feelings to the doctor. I am also quite controlling and strong, don't find it easy to let go of things. Sometimes you just have to, though.

Your kiddies are still so little, try to get help now so that by the time you have found the right help, they still will be young enough to forget all this. Don't rule out ADs, they can work on low doses for short periods, just to even out the moods so you can get a better perspective on life. Counselling is also brilliant as it lets you rant to someone other than DH! And all the othe wise ladies on here have excellent ideas too. Best of luck to you, hope you get yourself sorted