One 24 hour fast a week has helped where 5:2 did not

[Lemonthyme]

I have a good diet, being sober and exercising a lot, perimenopause was starting to cause weight gain. With some levels of change to my diet to cut out the crap, this changed to stability (which would and did cause loss when I was younger). There was one thing though that pushed me into trying something different and that was my HbA1c result which was 5.8%. So despite doing EVERYTHING the NHS tells you to do to be a healthy weight, I was still overweight and very close to prediabetic (other countries would already class this as prediabetic).

I've not had another HbA1c result back since I started once a week 24 hour fasting on top of everything else I've done but what is changing is I'm losing weight. Total weight loss is c. 1-1.5 lbs a week so not huge but consistent and enough that it's really starting to be noticeable.

I have been so fed up since perimenopause hit with things not working. I'm really pleased something is and it kind of makes sense that if there's good evidence that intermittent fasting works to improve insulin resistance, if IR was my problem, that would have been making it harder to lose weight so it is a complete lightbulb moment for me that it's probably been that.

As for "how" as that's what I would have been wanting to know. I "read" an audiobook on the science behind the hormones of weight loss and it advocated one 24 hour fast a week (or possibly two) for insulin resistance and metabolic flexibility as your body has to switch to burning fat. Two sounded terrifying but one sounded possible. They then went onto explain that all you do is finish eating dinner on, say Monday at 6pm then miss breakfast and lunch the next day, eating dinner on Tuesday at c. 6pm or later. Well that sounded less frightening even though that is 24 hours, it's actually only missing 2 meals. I'd originally thought about doing it just once a fortnight but when I tried it, realised that it was easy enough (it only gets a little harder from 4pm onwards) and if anything I now almost look forward to my fasting days. What's more is if I'm busy with work, it's actually easier.

I'd previously tried 5/2 though and didn't lose an ounce. So I wanted to share this with people in case you've tried one form of "IF" type approaches and assumed they all didn't work for you (although I'm not really sure if 5/2 is really IF).

Top tips I have is to have herbal or spice (not fruit) teas so they're calorie free, black coffee and plenty of sparkling water. I don't personally have any sweeteners anyway but I think most people avoid them when fasting. Also if you find you're struggling and exercise a lot like I do, sodium can be depleted by fasting so another tip is to have some electrolytes or even a pinch of salt (e.g. in coffee) if you're struggling.

I genuinely cannot imagine stopping doing this now unless I'm advised to medically. It's far easier than any other method I've used to try and lose weight. I'm a total convert.

How do you tell? I weight lift 2-4 days a week and there's not been any apparent drop in muscle.

It would be pretty hard to have lost a stone of water.

Do you lift weights at home or a gym OP?

The gym I go to has a smart scale, I’m not sure how accurate all the measurements are, but it does give an estimate of muscle mass.

I’ve been regularly fasting for a couple of months now, losing 1 - 2 lb a week on average, and according to the gym scales my muscle mass has stayed about the same since I started fasting. I’m certainly not finding it any harder to workout with the weights at the gym!

Meta analysis contradict you. Is isocaloric intermittent fasting superior to calorie restriction? A systematic review and meta-analysis of RCTs
20 randomised clinical trials are not a flawed study.
Their conclusion :
IF may be an effective alternative to CR but is not superior to CR in enhancing human health. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0939475324004393

Of course, youtubers and podcasters would say differently.

In the end, it doesn’t matter. What works is what you adhere to. Believing fasting is superior and beneficial for your health is a driver for you, fantastic. Eating more plants and more fermented foods is also great.
There is no trick, eat better and less.

This paper has exactly the same issues as I raised.

And I quote:

"We used these key words in our search (Fasting OR intermittent fasting OR intermittent calorie restriction OR intermittent energy restriction OR alternate-day fasting OR time-restricted feeding OR time-restricted eating OR 5:2 diet OR 12:8 diet OR 4:3 diet OR calories restriction"

Those techniques are vastly different.

"Seven studies were analyzed, with two following the 5:2 diet, three following the 16:8 TRE regimen, and two following the 14:10 TRE regimen"

None of those are actually fasting.

If you trawl through the meta analysis, they pretty quickly reject ADF which is the closest to what I'm doing, albeit far more extreme. The reason being is that isocaloric control groups are harder to have in place for ADF which is for an obvious reason that you're fasting for 3-4 days depending on the week. There wasn't a test in that paper for once a week 24 hour fasting.

That's the problem with just googling IF on google scholar. You get papers that don't really tell you much because so many very different methods are lumped in together. Then decide to deride someone's own reading and experience as a result.

At home. Gyms don't work for me. And those scales are notoriously inaccurate.

My weights have got heavier over the past few weeks, especially on upper body.

Apologies it’s Valter Longo - I thought it might be of interest as he’s not a fan of 5/2 and has over 100 research papers on fasting but if you’ve got a fasting systen that works for you that’s great 😀

@Lemonthyme that’s a good idea, I think I’ll try that.

You need regular body composition scans. One of the reasons fasting isn’t recommended for perimenopausal women (or women at all) any more is because it can cannibalise bone & muscle.

For effective fat loss (which you need to target) you need a lower carb diet, higher protein intake, very good supplements (try liposomal vitamin d3 with k2 & a basic multivitamin with regular blood tests), and you need to lift weights as heavy as you can stand at least 3 x a week.

Sigh...

And as I've said repeatedly, there isn't a lot of research on it. Lots of different methods are lumped in together and if you think there's a lot of research on ANY fasting with specifically perimenopausal women, you'd be very wrong.

Want to know NHS advice? Exercise and the Eatwell Guide. They give that advice to perimenopausal women as they do everybody else. There is no official guidance for perimenopausal women in the UK.

I shared this as one technique for "fasting" which I don't even think is fasting tbh i.e. 5/2 didn't work for me but once a week 24 hour fasting has. Yet post papers on fasting lump these two very different methods in together.

I'm seeing no reduction in muscle. I have already said I lift and lift heavy, regularly. Which you've obviously not read but came to give me your advice. On a fasting board. That fasting doesn't work. 🙄

Wtf are you bothering to come on a fasting board if you're so anti fasting???

Oh and regular body composition scans? On the NHS? 😆 I had to fight for an iron blood test!

Isn’t loss of bone and muscle tissue a risk with any sort of weight loss diet people undertake? Including more popular approaches such as calorie restriction or weight loss injections?

Especially if people aren’t doing mitigating things like lifting weights, eating enough protein etc?

Sounds like just what I need. Have pcos with prediabetes and peri too.

Could you elaborate a little on the teas? So black tea is ok? I'm really hoping so as can't get through the day without it so will be hard.

From what I've read, black tea and black coffee are 100% fine as is water. Despite the previous comment, everything I've read has said that herb or spice teas are also fine. What you want to avoid is anything with sugar, sweeteners or fruit extracts (so no slice of lemon in your tea).

I've just bought Jason Fung's new book the Hunger Code. I loved the Obesity Code, this is the follow on. It explains exactly why fasting isn't just calorie restriction.

I've done this today, have had nothing to eat since dinner last night. Looking forward to a lamb shish, yogurt and salad for my dinner though, not gonna lie.

It has been easier than eating 500/800 cals was, really not too bad. Thank you @Lemonthyme

I quite often have a similar dish as my fast breaking meal of pork souvlaki with tomato and cucumber salad and tzatziki. It's always what I fancy for some reason. Not bags of carbs.

It will be really interesting to hear how you feel over the coming week.

I love his books. It really helped me understand why I binge eat and how to counter it and it has been to some degree successful

Is there much new in the Hunger Code ?

I'm half way through and so far it's a lot of stuff I already know but am happy to get a refresher on. It's a combination of Fast like a Girl, The Obesity Code and Ultra Processed People (3 of my favourite books!). There is a lot about managing hunger, the impact of hormones, not just insulin (but obviously loads on insulin too) and the rise and impact of UPFs. The next bit is about emotional eating. It's good that all this is being brought together in one book as they all contribute to fat gain. So yes, some old stuff covered but good to get it all in a holistic context. Worth a read I would say

Thanks, I nearly bought it when it was released but decided to re-read the obesity code instead as it is always worth it. I grasp the core principles and follow them but stuff like the different hormones is complex but worth persevering with it as I find having a deeper knowledge helps me commit. I am currently on a 24 hours fast and may make it last longer, actually 27 hours now, mulling these things over in my mind somehow helps.

I have read UPP a few times too even the core message gets through quickly "stop eating this hideous muck" it is always worth learning more. I shall probably pick up the Hunger Code at some point, as well as being a great doctor he is an engaging writer and seems like a nice guy.

Hmm. Just a watch out. There are a lot of people writing a lot of stuff on UPFs right now which is at best "a stretch" if you go back to the original papers. It bothers me because it can stop people from eating foods which are healthy because of the level of processing and not cause alarm about foods which aren't. For example in the NOVA definition of UPF (yep I read the original paper) beer and wine are not UPF but are "processed" neither would ready salted crisps be UPF believe it or not. Two of the best things anyone can do for their health is stop drinking and stop snacking. (I type that without judgement btw, just as an illustration of how much it can be misconstrued.)

The thing is eventually some of the hypotheses about processing may be proven to be true and there are a couple I would suggest are likely (I'll get to them at the end) but the strongest evidence right now is that foods high in fat, salt, sugar and low in fibre are pretty bad for you. Thing is if you draw a Venn diagram of those foods and UPFs then there's quite strong overlap. What hasn't yet been proven consistently is for the same kind of diet but with UPF and non UPF foods, that the processing itself makes a difference.

But...

I think there are some interesting developments which are worth keeping an eye on. The problem is in 10, 20 years time some of these will be found to be BS, some will be found to be true but if you act on them all now, you might find you are excluding things from your diet you don't need to or including things that make it no better.

So for example, finely grinding ingredients. E.g. nuts. There is a pretty good paper written by one of the Zoe lot I think about how whole almonds are metabolised differently vs. ground. Can you extrapolate this to all processing? IMO no but it does suggest that longer term there will be "matrix effects" of the foods we eat which impact calories consumed. Some of these may be damaged by processing, some might bizarrely be enhanced depending on how something is processed. So for example, high amylose starches which are cooked and cooled can act more like fibre (it partially converts to resistant starch).

Secondly there are the aspects of convenience. If you are always cooking from scratch when hungry, there is always a short pause, perhaps 15 mins, 30 mins before food is ready. The immediacy of processed options may change our behaviours. BUT if that's true, then batch cooking is also a problem and it's not the industrial nature of food but the fact of microwaves and air fryers which speed up its preparation. So different solution required.

Lastly another one worth looking out for is the metabolic impacts of reheating in plastic. This is a reach evidence wise currently but for sure we have massively changed what we cook in, reheat in and eat out of in the last 40 years. Again though, if this is the problem, switching to board or wood packaging which looks better but still has a thin plastic layer is pointless. But reheating even industrial foods in ceramic or glass might be the answer.

Then build on top of this the multitude of other theories on why UPFs are problematic and we probably won't get there in our lifetimes on any causal links. The problem I see is people obsessing about whether or not a ready meal is or isn't UPF and forgetting that there is good evidence that the Haribo sweets or chocolate cake from the shop are both UPF and things we should be restricting in our diet through known, established science we've been aware of for decades.

But that said, I don't completely hate the message of UPF advocates because I think what they tend to advise, less processing, more preparation from scratch etc both can improve health outcomes through changing recipes (e.g. to increase fibre) but even cooking itself reconnects people with the process of food preparation which I think has been lost. I don't think losing weight has to mean eating dull food either. It's more sustainable long term if it's a joy IMO.

It is clear you misunderstand what an UPF is.

A chocolate cake or crisps are not necessarily UPFs. Pringles made out of potato starch are a UPF. Crisps with only sliced potatoes, oil and salt are not. A homemade or real patisserie chocolate cake made with only butter, chocolate or cacao powder, real eggs, etc... is not an UPF.
If you make your cake at home with a boxed cake mix that contains hydrogenated oils, emulsifiers and stabilisers, then yes, your homemade cake is an UPF.

"Chocolate cake from a shop". Commercially produced cakes are all UPFs if they are shelf stable as they will contain enzymes to prevent them going stale. I also mentioned ready salted crisps are not UPFs but are also obviously not healthy. I work in the food industry.

You're point is neatly explaining why UPF is absolute BS because a cake made from home with BUTTER not margarine would not be UPF but doesn't mean it's healthy! Any cake made at home with margarine will be. Also cocoa, goes through very high levels of processing including alkalising. If it's classed as processed, I'd be surprised from the original data but then they have that BS move to call vegetable oils unprocessed. (Btw, it's only called cacao if it's raw or processed at low temperature and not alkalised which is exceedingly rare.)

Dear god, have you read the original NOVA paper before accusing me of not understanding it?

But my point if you bothered to read it before getting on your high horse was it's obvious all of that is completely BS isn't it? You are not going to be healthier by eating home made chocolate cake with your raw "cacao" and butter or eating ready salted crisps rather than cheese and onion. That was my point if you bothered to read rather than just react!

Do you keep the fasting day(s) always the same weekdays or change according to social life and practicalities?

I used to fast a day a week in the 80s/90s and it suited me but I was told doing it sounds like an eating disorder 🤔

@timoteigirl it doesn’t really matter. It is a way of eating less across the week.