5:2 Thread No. 78: Welcome to our friendly support group to help you become a lean mean fighting machine.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done, bug, calzone

I finished my usual relaxed maintenance mini FD, 800 -1000 cals (I always guestimate)

Breakfast: whizzed up a small yoghurt & whey protein shake with stevia & cinnamon
to give me energy for a relaxing 45 minute Rhine jog, followed by 15 mins walk

Lunch: small bowl of porridge with chia seeds, cinnamon, 92% cocoa choc square

4-6 pm @ gym Pump class, then spin class

Supper at a lovely Rhine bistro: huge salad, egg, German handkaese (high protein, v low fat cheese) with apple, vinegar, olive oil.

badger Insulin is a hormone.
When the levels in your body are raised, it basically signals your bod to switch from fat-burning to fat storage
So, within each 24-hr period, you need as much time as possible without raised insulin

With snacks, your insulin is kept raised throughout the day, as in the graphs

The graphs show that snacking causes your days to be insulin-dominant i.e. ready to store fat instead of burning it.
When you go to bed, it takes longer to begin the overnight fast and start fat-burning.

In contrast, with just 3 meals per day, the 24 hr period is fasting-dominant - the human norm for millennia -
so your body is able to burn off some of the excess calories / body fat between meals
and at night you begin the overnight fast earlier and hence burn more fat

BCF you are a font of knowledge!! Thanks so much for detailed reply. Fat storage is bad right? I want to be lean and reduce body fat (and weight) - not by much, I'm just inside healthy BMI but would like to be sub 60kg where I feel great: Range could be 58-61 really.
When I open fridge to snack I go for lumps of cheese or a slice of ham, a pack of crisps or a biscuit. I can also eat spoonfuls of whatever I'm making the kids.
4 meals a day could work as I could plan a 4pm 'meal' into my TDEE on NFDs on MFP so that it's not too hard when I'm feeding the kids and I'm at my lowest resolve?

badger 4 meals would be a food 1st step, better than snacking.
Sounds like you probably won't progress further without killing the snack habit.

Geeky Stuff

High carbohydrate intake increases insulin,
and insulin stimulates the kidney to reabsorb water.
Lowering insulin therefore causes excretion of the excess water, as well as reducing the tendency for fat storage

Protein does not increase blood sugar BUT it does increase insulin levels*
Insulin can increase independently of blood sugar*:

incretins (a type of hormone) are secreted by the stomach and small intestine in response to food.
Both GLP 1 and GIP increase insulin release by the pancreas.
Fats, amino acids and glucose all stimulate incretin release and hence raise insulin

i.e. all calories raise insulin, not just sugar / carbs

Oh and stop tasting the kids food while you are making it, or eating their leftovers
Have your meals, nothing between, even lattes or wine

I’m feeling but since I’ve been doing 5:2 (about 4 weeks) I’ve been unwell 3 times. I’m never unwell. I’m sure it’s coincidence but people have started saying maybe the diet isn’t suiting me.

First I had a 24 hr v/d bug. Then I’ve had a cold. And now I’ve had awful bloating and stomach cramps for 48 hrs. Today and yesterday were NFD but they might as well have been FD for what I’ve eaten. I’m actually wondering if it’s a reaction to quorn. I tried quorn last week and no problems but this week I bought some nuggets and literally 10 mins after eating them the cramping started and it’s not stopped yet although not so bad today. But I’m so bloated I look about 8 months pregnant

I hope you feel better soon, Borris

Most 5:2ers report far fewer illnesses - duck & I & others were posting this recently - and fasting actually helps several chronic conditions, e.g. IBS, asthma, PCOS
Never heard of anyone becoming ill, provided they were in reasonable health and not being daft about fasting

You've had one cold and 2 stomach upsets
The initial D&V could be caught from any random, eating something dodgy, or a new food that your stomach can't handle
as could your current problem - either the nuggets were nok - refrozen / out of date … ? - or you react to quorn.

AARGH, you wonder why you have gut problems and you started eating Quorn ?
it is a very processed artificial food, totally different to natural veggy food.
Many people have digestive issues with quorn - a quick google throws up (!) a long string of reports - and I knew people in rl who suffered with it.
Personally, I avoid it and any other fake food

If you want to eat more healthily than before 5:2, then I recommend moving to more natural, less processed food
and avoid highly processed, invented foods.

==> So, have lots of different vegetables, salads, fish, eggs, lean protein, sweet potato, oats, quinoa, whole grains, lentils, beans, natural yoghurt, nuts & seeds
Avoid battered or deep-fried food
Cut down on junk & booze
Drink plenty of water

Borris Quorn can give me a dodgy tum too. I will eat it if others have cooked it for me but I haven’t bought it myself in years, I stick to soya. Still processed, I suppose, but I’m comfortable with that as we only eat it once a week or so (usually cauldron sausages). We eat tofu once a week generally too but that is far less processed.

D&V is probably a random coincidence?

Just caught up with thread from Friday where I was out all day at a Celebration of Life funeral he was a friend of my Ds's and Godfather to Dgs. We all had to wear very bright clothes, I wore a long, sleeveless flowered dress with a bright pink shirt. The guy was such a character and the whole day suited him so much and ended in what can only be described as a party at a beautiful Golf Club. Chose from buffet as wisely as I could.
Yesterday, lunch and evening meal, ate my saved portions of soup and Turkey curry. Evening went with friends to see a Jersey Boys Show with table seating and quite a lot of dancing. No food and was starving when I got home at 10.30 and wouldn't have slept so had a prawn salad, a bit weird at that time of night but healthy and I fancied it.

So Nfd today and keeping it healthy.
Good luck to any Sunday Fasters and Non -fasters, hope you choose wisely!😀

Ah ok. I stupidly thought quorn was healthy - thanks Mo Farah!!! Have researched now and won’t eat it again.

The d/v was def a bug as dd had it first

Badger - Are you quite new to 5:2? You may well find after a good few FDs your body seems to tolerate hunger better so you can go longer inbetween meals on NFDs. I think when you start FDs it is a bit alien at first and it takes time to get used to. Also it is hard to break the snacking habit.

Borris - I hope things pick up for you soon. I would definitely try eliminating the quorn and see if thing improve for you. I saw a thread on MN in the past about quorn and had no idea it was so over processed. Lots of posters also said it didn’t work for them.

I get random bloating not TOTM related where my stomach swells and I’ve been trying to pin point it without much luck as it happens after different meals.

HonkyWonk - appolgies ive noticed my phone was auto correcting you to HonkyTonk that sounds like a fabulous evening and well done you for reaching for a salad.

Busy Day for you yesterday BCF. Body pump is that with the weights? I think that’s the one I keep meaning to start but never get round to it.

I think quorn is ok if you tolerate it. but many people don't.
I can't eat mushrooms or I get stomach ache. same for quorn.

Quacking - yes about week 5 and you're right I do find it easier the day after a FD but then old habits creep back in

badger I’m sort of in the same boat. I need to give up snacking and reprogrammed myself. I know it will take time. I think habits are suooosed to take 10 weeks to form... so I’m trying to unlearn years of emotional and stress eating and also to reduce carbs and sugar. It’s a lot all at once so do it gently.
I’m good at eating less carbs when I have time to prep and make myself a nice big salad for lunch. But it doesn’t happen every day.
I am good at stopping the evening munchies after the kids have gone to bed - although I need DH to help with this.
I’m just generally trying to be kind to myself and when a craving hits, acknowledge it as a craving and think about the hunger signal. Have a big glass of water and walk away from the kitchen.

Of course the best way to prevent snacking is not to have snacks in the house.

Treat 5:2 as a process of self care and not as punishment. Take your time and be kind to yourself.

I slipped up on Friday. A craving got the better of me and all of a sudden I’d gone way over TDEE with a bag of peanut M&Ms. I won’t do it again anytime soon. I am pissed off with myself. But moving onwards and thinking about how annoyed I am at myself and using that as motivation for avoiding the “treat” in future is better than just giving up and deciding to dive headfirst into more sugary treats.

Quorn is based on a soil mould, which is grown in fermentation tanks, then mixed with egg albumen (or potato protein for the vegan version) Delightful

As blue found, mushrooms can affect your tum in a similar way, because they are also a fungus - although at least we normally eat the natural mushroom, rather than some weird processed version.

That's right, underpants one step at a time
I suggest, first cutting out all snacks - if you fancy M&Ms again, just have them as pud after your next meal
Sometimes you'll find you then don't want them; other times, just enjoy

Then, when you are ready, move on to cutting down on sugary treats after meals

duck Yes, pump is with weights;
a good class works all the major muscle groups, long sets so not too heavy weights, plus usually a short abs session at the end.

Today, my morning jog was 30 mins to the gym for spin class, followed by a quick 10 mins leg weights, then 50 mins walk on another route home.

Impulse control. ... not my forte (ohhhh some days I am more ADHD some days less). Thing is if I had bought 1 small little bag that would have been ok. But I didn’t. I bought a larger bag and munched them while stressed. And I know that they don’t make me feel great!

If I have them in the house they get eaten. But I am better at having my sweet with a meal. Afternoon snacks are much more rare than they used to be

Hi all, hope you've had a nice Sunday. Alternating FD's now and just finished at 733, not totes amaze but still not bad considering it's a weekend day!

Just to add my two-pence-worth to the Quorn debate: Bleugh, 'orrible stuff.

Wow BCF I am just loving the science bit - all this makes so much sense once it's explained. I was also seriously swayed by the insulin chart as mentioned by someone on the previous page, I can imagine my chart going off the scale now and it helps me to avoid weak moments between meals.

badger it is possible to retrain yourself, your body will get used to it. I read the French Women Don't Get Fat book a few years ago and just like BCF said, they basically think of the hungry feeling as a good thing, completely normal - it passes in a minute and it is actually a sign that you are doing well. I didn't even feel it for years when I was eating compulsively and out of habit - now I have started to listen to my body I have belatedly found out that I am actually not hungry in the mornings and it's a revelation!

Hi, I'm dipping back in again. I can only do 5:2 when my head is in the right place so I've decided to give low carb a go (bread is my downfall so I need to stop eating it as one slice is never enough).

Anyway, I've only done one day but popped over here as, despite feeling like I've eaten loads I've only had 696 calories today. Maybe 5:2 is something I can revisit? Early days that's for sure but I'm feeling more positive than any other diet.

Morning all. Hi mother I remember you. Sounds like a fast day to me

I am going to weigh in and then decide if I am fasting today. Will be easier to do tomorrow as am working out of home then....

good morning
fast day here.
was at a party in a park yesterday.
was sensible (ish) - stuck mainly to the raw veg sticks and left out the ice cream but had a piece of cake.

8 11.

650 day for me I think. Plus a bit of sun bathing? Nothing like seeing yourself in a bikini to motivate a fast day.

Last week of quiet work before my new role starts next week, am going to make the most of it.

Morning all, checking in for first fd of the week. Had a lovely weekend away and didn't go too mad but over tdee for sure... and more alcohol than was sensible

Enjoy the sun iam

badger I would say stopping snacking has been the key thing on 5:2... and honestly, you soon get used to it and you feel so much better for it. I even quite enjoy the feeling of hunger. you really can do it...

Thanks guys. Checking in for a FD today. Nailed a NFD yesterday with NO SNACKING yay! The thought of insulin peaking helped a lot. I'm very visual so the thought of the graph helped me resist a glass of red wine and a big lump of cheese once the kids were in bed!
Off to the beach today with the kiddies - enjoy the sunshine fasters! And non fasters!