5:2 Thread No. 78: Welcome to our friendly support group to help you become a lean mean fighting machine.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Phew, not just me then, Cheshire I have STS this last week, 10.3, which is good, but I find myself thinking, what the heck....so.
We mustn't give up and jack it all in
Got tea sorted tonight, noodles and prawns, have avoided cake today so far.
Keep going
Loved what BCF said up thread about plateau-ing.
I don't want to go back to what I was.

BCF just done your recommended 2 minute glute video. Erm. Surprisingly hard! Will try to do that every other day!

Good NFD today, I had my last exam this morning, but didn't use it as an excuse to splurge. So extra proud.

I do have a question about where to draw the line with drinks as snacks though - I've been treating tea with milk and half a sugar as an acceptable snack - as in I don't have to drink it with a meal. It's about 35 Cals on MFP. Is this ok? I only drink 2-3 cups a day and have already halved the amount of sugar I take. On FD I have no sugar in my tea at all but I can't bin it entirely. Tea with sugar is just too delicious.

NSV too today - went to buy new running trainers today and couldn't work out who the slim woman was in the gait analysis video! However she could definitely do with some more muscles, so you win some, you lose some!

I did 30 day shred level 1 yesterday and am sore today. Also v proud as nfd today and whilst tea was cooking I mfp’d my day - and found I was up to TDEE by the end of tea .. so poured a squash not a wine and no desert other than fruit for me

43 cool your jets. I'm like you I hate not being in control of my food choices. And like a PP not knowing what to MFP a Thai meal makes me cluck.

Write it off. Have a clean day with lots of water. Go for a walk. Get your head straight and do a FD. Come on here throughout.

[hugs]

Hmm, 2 minute glute video you say???

naughty congrats on last exam

Do n't beat yourself up, 43 We have all gone off track on occasion.
The trick is to stop - which you have already done - and to get right back on track with FDs
Can you plan an FD for tomorrow ?

Avoid takeaways or eating out this weekend
Maybe a miniFD on Sunday - but not if you normally have a Monday FD

Fine to exercise if this is your regular routine and you find it helps your mood, but don't worry too much about fitting in extra exercise

• unless you are a very fit athlete you won't burn much and it can feel like punishment.

For women, weight loss really is at least 90% exercise, for all but the most energetic exercisers,

bcf I think you mean 90% diet

cheshire If you hadn't 5:2ed the last 6 months, how much would you have gained, instead of losing a little ?
However, with your current lifestyle, it seems 5:2 basically can only maintain

Your weight gain over the years has likely been caused by this continual round of social & business dinners, drinks etc then boozing and hangover munchies …

We may get away with a lot when quite young, but after a certain stage the body stops tolerating it and starts expanding, then more and more …

There is no WOE that will enable you to really lose weight if such weeks are anything but occasional,
because you are taking in more than you can burn off
and also too much of the wrong kind of calories - alcohol & carby junk - which every weight loss plan tries to minimise.

Sounds very stressful for you
Have you considered doing ADF (alternate day fasting) if you have squeeze out sufficient days per week that are not social events ?

Thanks, Blossom You are right - a bad typo unless one is an Olympic athlete !

For women especially, weight loss is 90% diet

43 don't stress - I felt like this when I went to stay with a relative and couldn't plan or choose what I could eat. Not sure where the line is between keeping slightly obsessively on top of cal intake in order to achieve your goal, and the point when you realise you are not able to let loose occasionally without the feelings of failure ruin the day but I had crossed it. I found that going into 'yesterday' on MFP and just counting in everything I could remember helped massively. It wasn't accurate but to make up for that I rounded up, and I hadn't had as much as I had thought. I bet you haven't either. Just be calm and plan a fast day for tomorrow or the next day when you are ready to be kind to yourself again. You'll be fine.

Looking at the nutrient thingy on MFP today I noticed that I am falling well short of my required fibre intake, it's all these damn omelettes! Have any of you got any ideas for high fibre/low carb foods esp for FD's? Might have to resort to cereal tomorrow to (ahem) speed things along a bit iykwim!

Well done to all the Friday fasters by the way, kitchen closed on 614 today.

Ah BCF you're very kind. You're right, I would be putting on weight if I wasn't 5:2ing. To be honest, I'm probably 6:1ing half the time as I'm running out of motivation half way through the week. I think 4:3 may be good for me for a while; I didn't want to as NFDs are a problem for me but I think I need to worry about losing the weight, before I worry about maintaining.

I keep going through phases like this and getting really determined and then blowing it. But people are doing so well on this thread that I don't want to give up. I will up my exercise as I feel better for myself doing that. And get back on the wagon on Monday.

Well done on the squash, borris

No such thing as "good" snacks, sausage as they still raise insulin - it's not just sugar; it's also the lactose & protein in milk
However, 35 cals has a lot lower insulin impact than a typical latte
BUT I recommend that you have any sugary milky drinks with your meals - your 3 would fit well, even as pud - and in between meals, drink water, or hot tea / coffee without sugar or milk

goblin Breakfast cereals are low nutrient high sugar that I would regard as a dessert
At breakfast, the sugar spike means you are starving well before lunch, hence tempted to snack.
Also, many people think they are low cal, but look how tiny the recommended portion size is - with milk, the average rl portion is quite calorific and packed with sugar

high fibre breakfasts:

• Chia seeds provide useful fibre and are packed with nutrients
  I have a tbsp with porridge, cashew milk & cinammon

• or sometimes a tbsp chia seeds with Skyr yoghurt and berries

• wholegrain or rye toast with your eggs / 1 tbsp pnut butter / tinned sardine & tomato

If you are hitting your daily 5-7 portions veg though, fibre should not be a problem.
Are you drinking enough water - sometimes that is the problem, rather than fibre
Aim for 1-1.5 l water, plus other drinks
Start each day with a glass and keep glugging

Thanks BCF. I mean I'm very sad to hear about the tea, but I appreciate you telling me.

Cheshire you've got this. And losing 2 is better than gaining 2.

Cake I'm exactly the same with fibre. (I even wondered about the ancient packet of fibrogel in the back of the cupboard.) Baked beans help on NFD's, so maybe we could try and find non-sugary recipes?

BCF - in all honesty, no I don't drink that much water, but yes I do eat veg - love my greens, salads etc but I never think of them as fibrous, I could probably increase the portions of those quite easily. I wasn't serious about the breakfast cereal really - I don't eat breakfast any more anyway. Chia seeds though - on the shopping list! Thank you.

ALERT: drama queen moment
Why oh why do I sabotage myself?? Yes I have a teething baby and demanding preschooler but this behaviour predates kids. On the positive I'm at pre pregnancy weight and have lost 10kg since Nov BUT I'm dead set on losing another 6kg and getting sub 60, my goal. I MFP and plan and make the effort BUT THEN in all goes out of the window in moments of madness. ON MY WAY TO BED I just stuffed two TWO massive pieces of flapjack in my face. Definitely comfort eating as could have a rough night ahead with the little one but COME ON. I'm in a cycle of guilt, retrying and refailing.
Maybe I just need to speak to my husband and we need to eliminate any form of treat from the house?!?!
Going to bed annoyed AGAIN. It's not good for my mind state!

Wanted to post for anyone struggling, badger cheshire 43 in the hope that something might be helpful. i feel your pain and wish you strength in finding what will work for you.

2016 I lost over 4 stone and felt fantastic. Last year some sugar and snacking started creeping back in and I gradually lost touch with the place where eating healthily was effortless. For me (and i know we're all different and I've had meno and now post meno influences in the picture too) the problem is with refined carbs and snacking. If I cut them out (and i would include alcohol in this but I scarcely drink) I get quite quickly back to a place of being able to eat 3 square meals a day and no junk and nothing in between... and to a place where I can fast and not overeat afterwards.

But when i was struggling last year trying to do more FDs while still eating too much carb/some sugar and snacking meant I would repeatedly fail. So for me putting in more FDs didn't help it was getting the NFDs stable that was key and the way to that for me has been moderate portions of complex carbs, upping veg, beans, healthy fats, loads of water and avoiding sugar like the plague. And being very focussed on not eating between meals helps LOADS. Low carb felt great for a while but then started to trigger carb cravings too so moderate complex carb seems best for me

cheshire I'd say focus on the NFDs, especially as 4;3 might just add to the cycle of the overeating between FDs. Could you try a month of teetotal at all these events? So you don't have the hangover munchies? Maybe 43 too?

Sorry for the waffle but good luck, don't give up, there's always the chance to get back on track, move on from blips and refocus. be kind to yourselves, drink lots of water and think of all the reasons you want to be healthier/slimmer.

badger could you ruotinely have a treat as part of your evening meal. Sleep deprivation is torture. Is there any way your husband can do a shift so you get a few solid hours or a lie in? Don't beat youself up, you've done so well

cheshire I definitely agree wih clear that by far the best way for you is to get NFDs under control
however, that means totally changing how you eat & drink at all your social & business functions - and I didn't think you were yet in a place to change that much

I have to admit, ADF was just a way to cut down the number of weekly blowouts and break the pattern
but clear is right - ADF doesn't handle the root cause of your weight, so you might find you continue to go off-track

badger If you can eliminate treats from the house, particular sweet ones, that would be safest

• or maybe if your OH finds that difficult, he could have his own locked treat box

If your problem is snacking after supper, then I recommend that as soon as you have finished your last planned food, then
have a glass of water and clean your teeth
The taste really makes eating again less attractive, as well as not wanting to have to clean them again

Also make it a habit that as soon as you get up to get ready for bed, your first step is to gargle mouthwash for 10 secs, to renew the taste

badger Look at your achievements:
despite everything, you are back at pre-pregnancy weight.
So make the teeth tip a habit and move on

We don't do guilt on these threads
because we've all had blips

CakeGoblin - 1.5 stones is awesome big well done to you. You lost that really quite quickly. Hope your FD went well.

Juno - measurements I’d personally do weekly / monthly. Especially if there is no / small loss on scales as you do usually find a movement in inches. It’s fascinating and also a huge boost to motivation.

Elsa - definitely sounds like that’s 2 contributing factors. Just keep with it and ignore the scales as after TOTM you should see a whoosh.

BCF / Blossom- it does go to show just how amazing this WOL is.

Daisy - Yes I’m so happy I found 5:2, I was just about to sign up for a VLCD for the 4th year in a row and came across the 5:2 information on the VLCDs website. It’s definitely saved me two years of yo-yo dieting misery.

Honky - love a bit of FD experimentation with food trying to get as much bang for your buck.

43 - try not to worry, a good FD when your back will see you right again. We all have episodes like this and it’s very easy to fall off the wagon completely but you’ve not. Your still posting and still here and that’s all that matters. Be kind to yourself as you’ve done absolutely amazing.

Pumpkin - OMG that is amazing, you must come back Monday and report on your official loss.

Cheshire- oh I so sorry to hear your feeling like that. It must be so very hard for you. But on the positive side you’ve not gained. Have you been continuing to fast? I always say about myself “if im not watching my weight I’m gaining” and it’s so so easy to go off the rails and gain. The fact that your still here is a achievement in itself. And the fact that you’ve lost and not gained is fantastic. Hopefully BCF can give you some sound advice.

Naughty- have you ever tried sweetener in your tea? I use the Lidl one and always have as apparently it’s the best for nasties. I have never counted milk FDs or NFDs.
Did you get new running trainers? I love mine they have changed my life I no longer feel like I’ve been ran over by a bus the week after.

CakeGoblin - I also fall short of mine. Apparently the tablets I take can cause constipation (been taking them 2 years and only just found out) after some googling I found out it should be 30g and most days I fall well short too. I’m interested in what replies you get.
I drink lots and lots of water and have mountains of veg and I still rarely go.

Badger - yes I think that would work, eliminating all the baddies from the house should work wonders. I still have a treat so I’m not deprived but pick a day of the week so it’s something to look forward to. But it’s something I really really fancy. It’s worked well.

I'm off to the gym to try a 20 minute Tabatha workout. My upper body strength is so poor. Going to channel bcf during my press up attempts. Is it no good if you do them on your knees?

*tabata

clear Totally agree, I had to kick the sugary treats 3 days before starting the 5:2 so any uncontrollable cravings were past their worst. I know people disagree about whether sugar is addictive but all I can say is that my self-destructive sugar binges can be similar to what I imagine alcoholics or drug addicts have to deal with. When I'm not eating it I can be so much more in control if everything else I eat. And now I've been off it for a while even a single slice of birthday cake makes me feel ill afterwards, so if there is such a thing as sugar intolerance/addiction then I have it. It only takes me 3 days of headaches/crankiness to come off it though badger, maybe you could do a sugar cleanse before your next fast day? Then you will be on more of an even keel.