5:2 Thread No. 78: Welcome to our friendly support group to help you become a lean mean fighting machine.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

well done quacking gosh you must be so tiny at 7 st something!!

I think my left leg weighs 7st on its own well done quacking that’s brilliant news for you!
Hope everyone is ok, busy week here but feeling good on the food front. Was a NFD but ended up coming in quite low (for me) at just over 1200 (tdee is 2100) I’m sure i’ll make up for it later in the week

Well done on your SV, unicorn

Borris The small holiday gain should go after a good 5:2 week - 1 kg per holiday week is quite normal if you drop the rules and really indulge

If you have been losing around 1lb weekly until the hols, just stick to your 5:2 system
However, if progress before was slower, then I suggest making changes:

Instead of adding minis /FDs, I strongly recommend you look at what is almost certainly the real issue:
eating / drinking too much on NFDs
For 1 full week, mfp everything and check if your NFDs are roughly around TDEE

Mosely‘s TDEE Calc Set exercise to sedentary unless you genuinely exercise, not just general housework & child-wrangling.
(He recommends: any exercisers - set activity level to one below what you think)

Some 5:2ers can lose without ever needing to do this, but many others - who have been overweight a long time- have got used to consuming far more than their body can burn

i.e. you need to reset your "normal"

Otherwise, even if you added multiple FDs to your weekly WOE to reach goal, you would regain immediately
Your normal has probably been gradually increasing your weight each year.

duck As you have find it so difficult getting to 7stone something, I think it is probably below your real Happy Weight
Sometimes we set ourselves unrealistic goals

iirc, your waist /height was 0.36, really tiny and your BMI is 19 or less
imo - especially after losing so many stone - you would be better to have a Happy Range of 8 stone - 8st 5lb which you can maintain much more easily
That would still give you a low BMI and waist, but would probably be better for your overall health and let you chill.

Remember that after losing so much weight, you almost certainly have adaptive thermogenesis - a TDEE lower than the theoretical one for your stats, i.e. what someone would be who hadn't dieted to get to that weight

So I recommend maintaining what seems your natural Happy Weight Range for a couple of years, to let your TDEE gradually rise to the theoretical value, then you can review if those extra few lb is really important enough to you to make a final push.

Basically, pat yourself on the back for your amazing achievements and now be kinder to yourself

Just checking in! Have been MIA for a few days hit 12st 13 on Friday, but had a vvvv big celebration Friday night celebrating finishing uni, which led to bad food choices for the weekend and a failed FD Monday with an impromptu BBQ. I tracked everything and was either under or slightly over over TDEE with my weekly average still 1300, but am 3lbs up

Hoping a FD b2b today and tomorrow will sort it. Think I'm going to stop drinking for a month, I've cut down so so much and only really drink one day a week, but I always have a bottle of wine which leads to bad food choices the next day. I know, I know BCF, NHS guidelines are a rule for a reason!

Never mind, onwards and upwards. Hopefully will be back under 13st by Friday

Now to catch up on the thread.

Elsa since we started reasearching and learning for DS that’s when DH encouraged me to get a diagnosis. It is absolutely my let topic and I love it! If you want any book, you tube or podcast tips please send me a message! I’m very happy to pass on knowledge!

BCF our diet is very low in processed food already... the kids aren’t keen on nuts and I’m not sure I could give DS red wine.... — I’m joking, of course!

So, this morning the scales showed 90.2kg! I’m so happy with that and so excited that I could very soon be out of the 90s and into the 80s! Ooohhh I did a happy dance!
Then I did a 5km walk in 50 minutes which was also excellent.

Big wave and positive vibes to all those doing a FD!

AND THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR BEING AWESOME!

Elsa plus re ADHD it is very common to self medicate, I work well after a certain amount of caffeine... so maybe you could switch to a “better” caffeine source like coffee and avoid the chemicals. Although I appreciate giving up coke is hard. It took my DH months to properly get over his cravings.

Unicorn wow! Well done!

Camel i can’t wait to hear your scale result but it’s awesome that you already know you are feeling better!

borris as bcf says, that holiday gain will soon be gone with a couple of good fd's under your belt...

notlean don't beat yourself up, you have to celebrate these life events and as with borris, after a couple of good FD's that gain will be gone and you will soon be back in the 12s

nounder fab SV and fab exercise NSV

FD here, but I'm hungry - i think its because i'm premenstrual, i always crave carbs around this time. Lots of tea and water thus far, tomato omelette and salad for lunch then tuna with stir fry veg and maybe some greek yog for dinner. I have to do today as 2nd FD as there is no other day this week I can do it (forgot its father's day this weekend!!)

Fd yesterday and it ended well. Made a funny sort of "soup" for about 50 cals and it kept me going till 6.30.
Then made a Quorn pieces Curry with Cauli Rice, followed by Strawberries and Ff yogurt.
Weighed today and lost 1lb this week, so 4lb since I started 3weeks ago.
That's allright , isn't it?

Recipe for Funny Soup 😂😂😂😂 50 cals
1Bovril Cube dissolved in pan.
Add half a Spring Onion cut fine (I used the green end)
About 2" of cucumber diced
a handful of baby leaf lettuce
100g bean sprouts.
S & p and bit of curry powder.

Close eyes and imagine it's a Chinese type soup 😂😂😂
It's ok though on a Fd.

honky well done on your SV and I'd say yes, 4lb in 3 weeks is fine, do you have much to lose?

Hmmm, soup sounds interesting but if it works, then it works!

That sounds good honky wonk 👍🏻

I’ve worked out my TDEE at around 1650. I’ve mfp today’s food (with out wine) and it’s 1700. So I’m thinking maybe I need a couple of teetotal weeks as I prob would have had a glass of wine tonight as a reward after my 2 FDs. But maybe that approach is actually negating my FDs

Thanks "Boris" and the soup is what you'd call "interesting" 😹 Fortythree!
I can't begin to think how much I've got to lose, I'm aiming to lose 2stone and see how I feel then.
But I'm quite old 😂 so have to be careful to not look too scrawny.

My aim is to balance face v body, which you have to do at my age. 😠

Congrats on your SV, Underpants and healthy exercise NSV
Soon you'll be celebrating seeing the 80s on the scales - a great milestone
I think you are pretty awesome yourself, coping with everything.

btw, from age 4, I had a tiny thimble glass of sloe gin or sherry after Sunday lunch each week (1950s kid)
No, don't try this today !

Well done on your SV too, Honky
That's a good start. Pat yourself on the back

That's an inventive Funny Soup recipe
nice idea & that's its official name now.

Don't beat yourself up, NotLean Finishing uni is VERY special - hooray !

A weekend binge usually goes the next week if you nail the FDs, as it is partly undigested food (which may stay longer than 24 hrs) with also some retained water due to excess carbs

So, your aim of Friday to return under 13 st is sensible
but do keep this weekend sensible, so you start of Monday still under that milestone

If the weekend binge is fairly frequent, then it is best to tackle it, or you would waste a lot of weeks undoing each binge.
(Also, booze & then binge is expensive as iirc you have to watch your budget - 5:2 done properly can save £££)

==> Your idea of a dry month sounds good
After that, I suggest you try out say 2 days on which you have 1-2 glasse, always followed by an FD - to avoid the next day making bad choices

That should help, planning with mfp for a while, Borris
2 dry weeks sounds good, to help you get used to eating within TDEE

Afterwards, decide if you can cut out something else, e.g. a latte / biscuits / cake / other treat to allow a glass on say 2-3 nights.
A glass of red ranges from about 85 cals for 125ml (small) to 170 for 250 ml (large) - so measure level / your glass
Alcohol is nice & fine in moderation for most folk.

If ever there was a Poo crumb covered buffet it must be this one....

Long time lurker here waving hello to everyone. I say long time lurker - I first started fasting in 2013, loved it and lost lots of weight. I stopped in 2014 and yes, the weight crept back up.
I'm back in the swing of things now and have been 5:2ing diligently for 6 weeks now and will work on a suitable maintenance plan for when I reach my target weight.
Right now, I'm about 1kg off being in the "healthy" range on the bmi, but I'd like to lose another 8kg.
I'm fasting today and I (generally) really enjoy the fast days. My concentration is sharp and clear and I get a real buzz out of it. Of course there are some that are hard work!

Anyway, enough from me - you lot are amazing - I've picked up so many great tips over the years and there have been so many inspiring stories.

Check in day and have gone down .3 kg which is a but disappointing as I was hoping to reach a mini-goal of 1 stone down today. But, I'm not surprised as was out the weekend and definitely indulged, drinking wise. Also I think my maths was a bit off. I'm tracking in kilos but find myself jumping into stones and lbs for encouragement :)

Anyway, haven't failed to reach the minigoal, just postponed it a week or two. And realistically, I think this is where my weight gain slows so I need to be viligent and stick with it.

Hello everyone. Have had a long weekend off (almost week!) for my birthday celebrations and am back into a FD tomorrow. Weight hasn't done anything scary, but am just looking to maintain this week. Back on hopefully for another lb next week.

Has taken me ages to catch up on the thread! But well done to all those with SV and NSV's and hello to all the new posters!

Just checking back in. NFD today after yesterday’s FD. 2nd FD planned for tomorrow. Tonight’s dinner is a veggie korma with chickpeas, sweet potato and spinach. I’ll have cauliflower rice with mine. I haven’t decided on tomorrow’s FD food yet, I have a couple of options. I need to meal plan tonight for the big shop tomorrow.

I’ve decided to follow the lead of a pp (can’t remember who - lamb?) and take my formal weekly measurement on a Mon morning. Hopefully I’ll be at my heaviest then.

Hang in there Wed fasters.

Welcome to the new people and congrats on all the weight people are losing. You are all doing amazingly well.

Hope you had a lovely birthday sausage.
My second FD of the week here. I weighed myself yesterday and i’m getting very close to my goal and have lost almost a stone since I started in April. It has been reasonably easy so far with a consistent loss every week. In a similar way to someone up the thread (sorry I can’t remember who), I used to exercise a lot to control my weight but I didn’t really get beneath 9 1/2 stone. I’m now wondering if I can lose a few more pounds on this. I certainly still have some belly fat which I would like to get rid of. I also still haven’t knocked snacking on the head (don’t tell BigChoc) and although it hasn’t seemed to hinder my losing weight I need to get it under control if I want this to work long term.
I’m also massively kicking myself that I didn’t start this earlier. I’ve been unhappy with my weight since I had my first dc 3 1/2 years ago but I was full of excuses as to why I wasn’t loosing weight. I thought my body was holding onto fat for breastfeeding, that I shouldn’t diet in case I disrupted my milk supply and that I wouldn’t be able to be slim because I didn’t have time for exercise anymore. Anyway i’ve lost pretty much all of it in a few weeks of this. My milk supply is still there and I haven’t needed to spend hours exercising. Anyway i’m rambling. I guess the most important thing is i’ve done something about it now and i’m really happy because this actually works!

I hope you had a lovely birthday week, sausage
Welcome back

Welcome back, cheddar and well done on your SV
So near to goal again

This time you know to have a maintenance plan

• the effective minimum is to weigh weekly and return to 5:2 whenever you go 4lb above Happy Weight Range, but I suggest daily 14:10 too. Other plans are 6:1, 13:1 etc

Best maintenance tips are the same as for weight loss:

• no snacking
• sensible about treats
• NHS alcohol limits
• Lots of water

Pop That's in the right direction, so still an SV
Sounds better in lb - 0.3 kg is ⅔ lb, which is good after an indulgent weekend
A boozy session stops fat-burning dead for several hours, until your liver has fully processed all the toxic byproducts

Ghost I heard you about the snacks
Zapping that habit permanently can make a surprising different to weight and makes maintenance afterwards much more reliable too.

Well done on your SV.
You'll nail that stone milestone soon

We've had many BFers here, even a couple of folk who tandem fed
Best to stick to your 700 FD allowance, 1000 cals for EBFers, so you have enough energy.
5:2ers so far all reported milk supply was fine, but I'd recommend you don't try to go down much below BMI 20 even if petite.

Have been trying to detox from my phone hence not much posting this week but just wanted to do a late FD check in. All going swimmingly so far. Tin of soup for 110 cals at lunch leaving 390 for a 2 course dinner. Starter was asparagus spears with soft boiled egg and main will be Morrisons veggie enchiladas for 270 calories. Have had to split it into two mini meals which isn't ideal but needed to bring the kids swimming and I didn't get in from work until quite late. Despite a good week I haven't actually lost anything on the scales but I am ok with that as I think it is hormonal and I know it will come off eventually!

Will try and catch up later with the rest of the thread.

Today has been kind of a mini although not sure on cal count. FD tomorrow. Yesterday's NFD was a blow out, husbands birthday so there was chocolate cake and pizza. I may have had a slice of pizza for breakfast this morning 🙈

FD completed. 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻

Had my marmite drink at 4pm which kept me going......

M&S ready meal for 320 calories plus broccoli and asparagus
Also had half a pack of sushi which is about 150 calories.

I’m in the bath now to avoid temptation.

Well done on your FDs, homemade, calzone and all the other Wednesday fasters

homemade That's right, just ignore any weekly / hormonal blips.
Water retention due to hormonal swings can easily disguise a real fat loss
if your NFDs are sensible, then the trend over 2-3 weeks should be downwards