5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Omg I totally forgot you can increase the calories on B2B FDs as I very rarely do them. Can eat like a king tonight then

Pumper - at least if you do B2B mon/tues you are then done for the week. That would be a amazing achievement. Don’t forget a BCF has said you can have more calories on a B2B.

BCF why are we allowed more on B2B?

I’d forgotten too! It’s 650 isn’t it? Right, B2B it is, be a doddle now! 😂😂

5:2 is pretty flexible, pumper and weight loss is what happens over weeks,
so long as you have the total number of FDs and you are sensible overall on the NFDs

So, no problem: you could count a fast today as one of next week's FDs, because you have already done your 2FDs for this week

Or try a b2b - lots of choice available

I'd love to know the science behind the increased allowance for B2Bs too. That might really open up options for me too as I am s bit scared of B2Bs. Enjoy pumper next week - and how nice it will he to enjoy that lovely meal on Wednesday after 2 FDs.

slinky The 650 allowance for b2b is simply because this is what worked in Dr Michelle Harvie's alternative form of 5:2, that she developed independently of Mosely's version

Her research was funded by various cancer charities and her human trial subjects were overweight women who had survived breast cancer.
Her results showed they lost more weight than the control group who were on an ordinary calorie-controlled diet.
Also blood tests e.g. IGF-1 levels, indicated their risk factors for cancer recurrence had reduced too.

She did not compare to Mosely's 5:2, because her work was before his first book.
So we only know that both methods work
His method became mainstream and hers is almost unknown, imo not just because of Horizon, but because her book is really confusing - writing is clearly not one of her talents, unlucky there.

Oddly, her book doesn't go into the science either, very dumbed down while simultaneously confusing, whereas Mosely's books are packed with references and easily accessible science.
The "Science for fasting & health" section at the end of the thread OP always references her research.

btw, Mosely has since concentrated more on those at risk of T2, so has been combining his "Mediterranean" version of low carb with fasting
He has found that 800 cals are more doable for those with blood sugar issues
BUT of course
unless you have a high TDEE - say near the 2500 level of an average bloke - your loss may be noticeably slower;

if you have a low TDEE it may crawl along

From reading huge amount of research, I think that 650 cals b2b works as well as 500 cals for non-consecutive FDs because fasting benefits over b2b are cumulative:

you start FD2 already in a very fasted state, more than just the overnight fasting,
whereas with non-consecutive days, the first bit of the 2nd FD is spent getting you to that same fasted state

For weight loss and health, what matters is sustainability longterm
So do whichever suits you best

One warning about b2b:
If you have problems keeping NFDs within sensible bounds, then 5 NFDs in a row may be too challenging

Mosely's 5:2 with non-consecutive FDs also gave him reduced IGF-1 and reduced cancer risk markers
Both methods work - choose your weapon

Jeez I'm hacked off!
Been doing 5:2 since it started, then had a break for a year. Put weight on 😬, so I started again in October lost 13Ibs. Christmas happened and I gained 7Ibs! Have been 5:2ing since new year and I've lost nothing and sometimes I go up 2-3IBS! So this week I decided to try 4:3, yesterday was my 3rd fast of the week and when I weighed myself I'm up 200 effing grams!!! So so so annoyed and fed up!

The only thing different since Dec is that I've started doing Pilates twice a week and my rheumatoid arthritis has kicked in so I'm taking more ibruprofen could that effect it or am i kidding myself?
sad

twinmama Most likely answer is that your "normal eating" on NFDs has oncreased, so that you are eing back all the FD deficit
When that happens, 4:3 often doesn't help, because people automatically increase NFD consumption to compensate.

Also, "eating to appetite" if you increase exercise often means calories increasing above the extra calories burned - exercise usually burns surprisingly little unless very intense and for several hours per week

There is no extra allowance for exercise on FDs, btw.

I recommend:

• Calculate the calories you normally burn via TDEE Calcc*
  Exercisers should set activity level to one below what you think, so if you just do Pilates 1-2 x weekly,
  I'd use "sedentary" in the calc

• For one full week, mfp anything you eat and drink, for a reality check on portion size and treat amount
  This can show where the problem lies

• Do 5:2 rather than 4:3 - 2 out of 7 days fasting is usually more sustainable than 3 out of 7
  4:3 can increase the tendency to overeat on NFDs
  Also, it increases the risk of just crashing out and it is sustainability over weeks & months that counts

• NO snacking / grazing between meals
  Even "healthy" snacks keep insulin raised
  Have any fruit, alcohol, treats etc as oatt of your NFD meals

• Drink lots of water
  Start each day with a glass and keep drinking through the day
  Cut fizz, including diet fizz, to maximum of one 330 ml can or glass daily. Try to cut out Coke / Pepsi type crap completely.

oops, don't know why the App bolded some of that

Thanks so much BCF for that information. That really helps. Your point around starting the 2nd FD in an already fasted state really resonates. Will definitely explore this option and will try one of the week's. Thanks again.

Thanks BCF, honestly can’t tell you how grateful I am for all your input

Thanks too, Slinky. I bet steak and fizz tastes incredible after a B2B so it won’t matter if I burn it!

Hi I am long time lurker and on/off faster. I know it works and genuinely enjoy it when I am in the zone. I love the feeling of doing something that does not feel like a diet slog and I know my body feels better for the break I can feel it.
Going to get back on the wagon next week Mon/Thur starting weight 95kg BMI 31 hoping to reduce those both sensibly. I have seen a dear friends success and it spurs me on as she has lots more energy for life.

Bugpuss that’s great that your joining in the thread. Best of luck for tomorrow.

Been swimming today for the first time in at least 7 years. It was alright I’m not a great swimmer but it made a change.

This B2B is actually alright, surviving on coffee from last nights tea at about 7pm. I’m actually really considering making weekend b2b fasting a thing as it fits in pretty well with our week.

I may give the b2b fast days a try, I have done that in the past and found it bearable. The 650 calories definitely makes it sound more appealing. I will try a 16 hour gap overnight then use 150 calories or so early afternoon and save the rest for evening.

Welcome, bagpuss and good luck on your FDs next week.

Many 5:2 ers have moved down BMI classes to healthy weight
Just divide your goal into lots of mini-goals and celebrate each one with us - we especially cheer the stone and BMI class milestones

Worth trying different ways to see if what suits you best, darknight

Alternatives
. 2FDs and 16:8 or 14:10 on the NFDs suits many folk
. 5:2 BSD, which is Mosely's daily Mediterranean low carb + 2 x 800 cal FDs
. If you have a high TDEE / lots of weight to lose, you could do 800 cal FDs even without low carbing
. A system for those who find FDs tough is miniFDs (700-1000 cals) on Mon+Wed+Fri, with NFDs all the other days

big choc thanks for your comments I totally agree I need to look at nfd, however this week I was 4000 cal under my calorie goal so can't explain why it made no difference.
I definitely don't eat back exercise cals...

I will endeavour to note everything on Mfp for the rest of feb and see if that does shed any light on it, I'm obviously doing something wrong!

One week can be a blip, twinmama - hormonal swings, undigested food, retained water after excess carbs
especially after some weeks of over-eating

I suggest mfp in case you are overlooking something
Then review in 2 weeks

Morning all. Checking in for Monday's FD! Whose with me? Feeling dehydrated so need to get some water in me first of all. Not sure what I'm doing this morning, may go to check out local soft play. In the afternoon I'm going into work to discuss return after ML. Will get some fish for tonight.

I think my antibiotics have kicked in, attempted a mini FD yesterday (I know you said not to fast BCF but I just felt too guilty to skip it). Ended the day at around 800 cals, woke up feeling alright so attempting a FD today as well.

Plan is to try and avoid too many teas as they take a big chunk of my allowance (milk and two sugars).

Fd here to violet!

Feasted a lot over the weekend. Also drank alcohol which i hadnt for a month ans it definately upset my tummy a bit. Definately ate too muh this weekend ans have a big one next weekend too so trying to keep meals small, light and nourishing this week.

Will be giving up bread and sweet food for lent, anyone else?

Dinner will be smoked salmon salad. Hardest bit will be that i am babysitting tonight so that means late night and snack temptation. My plan is to bring work and then do yoga. Might paint toe nails too!

Good luck to any other fasters!

Starting B2B today, eek! Also more stupid snow here so all plans to get out of the house have been cancelled, will have to think of something to keep busy. Best of luck to everyone fasting today!

Weigh day for me and I've lost 2.5lbs and reached first mini milestone, I am now under 12, next milestone will be to get under 12.7lbs. I haven't been in the 11's for about 18 months and then only briefly so its quite exciting

Good luck to all Monday fasters!!

Well done blue!

Good luck pumper. I must admit i think you b2b fasters are mad!