5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

That's an excellent FD, lawyer
One low GI, healthy meal gives you the best conditions to burn extra fat.

Your clever DH cooked a delicious FD supper, TIP
Hang onto that one

Well done on a good 1st FD, 43

No, it doesn't matter how many days between FDs and you can sap them each week, so long as you manage o do 2 per week
However, most folk find it easier to have 2 or 3 days between, because just one day between can increase hunger on FD2
So, a very popular combination is Mon+Thur.
Or if you find weekends sabotage the week, then have a Tue or Wed FD + any weekend FD

No snacking is important, so is staying within NHS alcohol guidelines - for longterm health reasons too -
That's completely separate from enjoying a weekly night out, i.e. one big meal with 1-2 glasses of wine, which is quite normal to do on 5:2
We need occasional feasting as well as fasting

As pp have said, on that day, just have a v small meal, e.g. prawn salad, during the earlier part of the day
If you think you will be far over TDEE for the day, you can "bank" calories from the other 4 NFDs,
e.g. if you eat 300 below TDEE on those, then you have an extra 1200 for your big night out

Unescorted 
I enjoy chilli, but I find overdoing it is more painful at t'other end a few hours later < TMI, sorry ! >

Was that a typo, or have you really managed a 10 cm waist NSV ?
Brilliant if so, but are you sure you have weighed with the same scales and under exactly consistent conditions ?
Even changing batteries or moving the scales to another room can instantly mean a few kg

Very rough rule of thumb for most folk is that 5lb loss means around 1" inch loss around waist
10 cm is 4" so I'd expect around 20lb (9kg) for that amount of waist reduction.

Has the weight shifted elsewhere, e.g. increased hips, thighs, upper arms etc ?
Otherwise, you must now have really fat toes

Typo: You can swap days for FD each week, so long as you do 2 each week

Morning all. Good FD yesterday and am travelling today and tmrw so NFDs. Just threw coffee all over myself in the car ffs.

I'll catch up on the full thread later- strength to Tuesday fasters!

Hello newbie for advice

Not read the full text but done my best!

I mainly want to try this wol for health benefits - despite weight loss my waist size is still large.

I dropped from 10stone 10 to 8 stone 3 by January this year, then fell off the diet wagon and have regained 10ibs in 6 weeks! so I need a WOL not a diet.

I need help working out my TDEE please - I breastfeed an 18 month old boob monster who doesn't sleep.
I do school run every day pushing a buggy with toddler in it, and 4 yo on the buggy board for a combined total of 30 minutes. So 3 walks of 10 minutes each daily which does get my heart rate up as I'm pushing a load!
I run for 20 minutes 2x a week, and for 60 minutes once a week.
I also try to do the "30 day shred", or 15 minutes of "Davina fit in 15" 2-3 times a week while toddler naps, but sometimes don't get to finish.

So my questions are:
So is this lightly active?
As I'm breastfeeding a toddler do I still get 1000 for FD?
How do I know what's my best weight?
How on 👂 did I manage to put on 10lb in 6 weeks! That seems insane
And possibly not related but while I was not dieting this month I have occasionally been having night sweats. I may be menopausal I suppose (am 42), but has anyone encountered this when falling off the diet wagon?

Emsy- I started off losing virtually nothing but then it started coming off.

Hi new people!

When my TOTM comes I eat a square of dark choc which knocks that on the head. Try it honestly! 85% obvs.

Oh yes been meaning to ask where to buy dark choc? Was it Lidl? Anywhere else or any other brand similar?

Also on the last thread someone mentioned another app similar to mfp but it was more Uk based. Trying to locate this app....

Lastly, is the shred up on the internet anywhere? I have the dvd but no DVD player in our new 🏠 ...

Welcome, just
5:2 is excellent at zapping fat around the midsection, because it helps the issues of insulin metabolism that usually cause it.

It also has helped those of us who are post-meno, or in your case, maybe pre-meno
Piling on weight around the middle, plus night sweats sound classic symptoms that come a few years in advance of full meno

Yes, quite possible to gain 10lb in 6 weeks, especially if you've been snacking / grazing and / or eating lots of sweet treats
However, some of it is likely to be retained water, which 5:2 is good at releasing

BFing & TDEE

• I suggest you aim for 700 FDs, since 1000 cals is for EBF
• TDEE: start with "light" activity.

See how you go for 2 weeks and then review and tweak FDs & NFDs if need be

Standard 5:2 tips plus tailored advice for you:

• no snacking ever, FDs or NFDs, including at night Snacking hinders fat-burning and increases overall hunger Have any alcohol, fruit etc, only as latt of a meal, not between meals
• Sleep - difficult I know, but plan how to fit in enough, because its lack is a cause of weight gain due to increased cortisol
• NO eating during the night - just drink water
• Each day, try to eat your last meal no later than 7:30 pm, then nothing until breakfast
• Drink lots of water daily and cut right back on fizzy drinks, even diet ones.
• On FDs, stay within NHS alcohol guidelines on NFDs
• On FDs, NO alcohol or sweet treats - cake, biscuits, sweets, or choc with less than 90% cocoa On NFDs, keep these to one portion and try not to have them every day Alcohol & sugar pile on fat around the waist

_Goals-
I suggest:

• Develop healthy habits for life, as above
• Focus on waist - aim for waist (measured at narrowest point (usually 2" above navel for a woman, but navel for a man) that is less than half your height
• Weight - aim first for healthy BMI, then calculate your frame size: wrap fingers around your wrist; if your middle finger overlaps your thumb, your frame is small; just touching is middle Probably better with BMI < 23 if any of these apply: . Asian / African . small frame . apple shape - weight tends to go onto waist
• Future shape: The OP has 3D body visualisers for ripped / normal etc with sliders for weight, under the "How to Start" secrion

Longterm / Maintenance
"a WOL not a diet:" is the right attitude for longtime weight management

If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist

As you near goal, you can work out which maintenance plan suits
All involve weighing at least weekly, plus sticking to the healthy habits "no snacks, sensible treats & alcohol, lots of water" plus usually some fasting, often 6:1

Not sure why the App added all those underlines to goals but not intended by me

Hi Justterfing and welcome.

Do you mind me asking what diet you were doing to loose weight?

I find after dieting I go back to my normal way of eating (lots of processed crap) and do pile on the lbs very quickly.

5:2 sounds great for you.

Re inch loss unescorted I’ve not found it consistent at all. Could have a blinding week on the scales and loose no inches and on the flip side this week was slightly over target hadn’t done anything overly energetic and was 1 inch down on my thighs.

Thank you very helpful!
I'm currently BMI 20 and apparently medium frame as my fingers don't overlap on my wrist. But my waist is 29" at a height of 5'5.5". Which is less than half so not as bad as I thought then! So maybe I need to maintain at my current weight and not try to get back down to my January weight - and just go for health?

I was just calorie counting. And being silly occasionally by saving all my calories for evening chocolate and sweets. I need to be healthier basically.

I have a real chocolate problem. Its going to be hard but I need to cure my sweet tooth! I used to have 3 sugars in tea about 6 a day!

Welcome justterfing, there is lots of brilliant support and advice on these threads.

I'm new to 5:2 but similar to you in that I find if I'm trying to actively lose weight I'm fine, it's maintenance that I struggle with. So far I'm really enjoying this WOE and feel far less restricted. I'm hoping this will help me build healthy habits for good, whilst allowing me to enjoy treats/ social events without falling into binge mode and then another very restrictive diet to make up for it!

Hi justterfing, I lost a stone and a half two years ago just calorie counting on MFP and put it all back on again as soon as I stopped - like you, again, I was skipping meals in the day for sweet stuff in the evening which I now realise was a total waste of time. I'm finding this WOE much more do-able. I couldn't stand the idea of only having 1200 cals every day for the rest of my life but the idea of eating normally for six days a week and fasting for one day once I hit maintenance is far less depressing.

Purple- My fav dark choc is the Lidl 81% choc. I love it. I nibble a square after dinner and it kills my appetite stone dead! I've tried the Lindt one and it was a bit too mild for me. Really good to zap sugar cravings.

I use my Fitbit app instead of MFP. Really much prefer it. I got the shred DVD in Poundland for, well, a pound.

Hi Just!

JustTerfing - your BMI is quite low so that’s really good. 5:2 should still work well for you if your looking to loose a little bit, it may just be a bit slower. But long term for maintenance it seems the best way of life.

I’m now on maintenance and have been for 3 weeks, this is the longest I’ve ever maintained my weight. I diet each year then come off it, go back to eating crap and end up back where I was in a couple of months.

I’m a sweetie whroe, it’s like crack to me. I piled on the lbs very quickly last year as I found myself eating a bag a night. Turns out the bag was over 1000 cals. So easily done.

I still have some occasionally but it’s only occasionally now and have it directly after a meal. The no snacking rule is vital for me as I can’t eat loads in one sitting as I’m already full.

justterfing At 8 stone 3, your BMI was 18.6, almost in the underweight region

Since you have a medium frame size, imo this was too much of a strain for your body
Hence the rapid regain and probably a tendency to binge

With the extra 10lb bringing you to 8st 13, your BMI is 20.2, so around 9 stone sounds appropriate for you as Happy Weight to maintain

A 29" waist gives a waist/height of 0.44, also fine
Your HIIT exercise is well suited for your situation of limited time and tendency to gain weight around the waist
Maybe see if you can add some more walks to tire out the boob-monster

Imo, your goals should be healthier habits and also longterm weight management
So, as posted:

• Cut out snacking and night-time eating
• Cut sweet crap - which is bad for longterm health, regardless of weight - down to sensible portions once per NFD at most
• Cut fizz, boost water and veg

I suggest also:

• Try one weekly FD with 700 cals and work on the healthy habits
• For NFDs, your TDEE is about 1700 cals, but imo no need to mfp if you cut out snacks and cut down down on the sweet junk

snail I think the depressing reality of daily 1200 cals for life is why well over 90% regain lost weight, plus extra lb besides.
Why so many yo-yo for decades, overall increasing weight and health issues.

One day fasting per week is much more doable, with healthy habits wrt snacks, booze, sweet crap on the other days - important for longterm health.
Or 2 days fasting per week for those with low TDEE and / or post-meno

I came to this WOL mainly from reading research into healthy aging - research indicates fasting helps several major degenerative diseases, see links at the end of the OP.
Health is why many maintainers and I - like TIP - intend to stay on 5:2 or 6:1 permanently
(of course, we have fasting breaks for holidays, but try to keep healthy habits then too)

My personal guidelines are
Weight loss phase: averaged over the NFDs, no more than 10% of calories on sweet crap+ booze
Maintenance: no more than 20%

Of course, there is no actual need for junk or alcohol, but in rl most of us enjoy such treats - they just need to be more occasional.

I woke up planning to do a fast day but feeling bleurgh, worn out and dizzy. My son has a cold and I might be getting it. So I’m just going to have a sensible nfd.
Good luck to all the fasters, stay warm!

OMG
Been on the 5:2 for 8 days.
Lost 4lb
Lost 2 inches from my waist
Lost 1 inch from top of thigh
Lost 0.5 inch from bum

Eeeek

Mrs jelly!

Well done Mrsjelly!

I had the two inch loss from my waist really quick too, Mrsjelly, and was actually stunned! I couldn't believe it. Well done, that's amazing!

Wow mrsJelly!

Thanks BigChoc. Yes I'm actually happy with how I look at around 9 stone, just was trying to get my waist smaller as i had a 26" waist pre children at 9.5 stone! But pre children I didn't have such easy access to chocolate all day, and was very sporty so I suppose my sugary tea addiction wasn't so much of a problem.

Yes I really want to kick my sweet tooth.i swing between spooning the Nutella jar into mouth some weeks, then strict calorie counting others, and tbh I'm fed up with it.
I'm so glad you said my FD could be 700 as I tried fasting today and I've already got to 500! I'm knackered though as the monster has been up since 5am and woke about 5 times during the night. have to work towards 700 though I don't think I will manage that today.

I'm really hoping this WOL will work for me. I'm very optimistic and can see that one FD is much more psychologically achievable than constant denial. Not to mention the health benefits and hopefully helping with my sugar addiction!

justterf
We are very similar build, just I'm a lot older than you
My waist grew after having kids because my ribs expanded
so I accept they my torso is now straight lines not hour glass
not that it ever really was