5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

quacking
Yup I started 5:2 in August 2012
These threads predate the book : it fed off us, we fed of it

rydal
My BMI is just under 22 which is too high for me.
I'm happiest when its at around 20

remember that the healthy range starts at 18.5 - and people who have a narrow build can look and feel significantly overweight at BMI 22

on the other hand those of solid build look scrawny at BMI 23

the true target is lean and healthy, all else is just numbers

BCF you’re right I do just need (want) to lose around my middle! Very very round tummy which was once flat. Sigh. I’m looking at 5:2 as a long term plan for me rather than a quick fix so I’d be ok with 1lb a month.

I don’t really snack (though made muffins today for DCs and obviously had to have one) but my portions are definitely larger than they should be. I’m hoping fast days will shrink my tummy a bit and make me less greedy on normal days.

GP has advised me to cut down on alcohol so I’m limiting myself to weekends now. Used to (till last month) have a drink almost every night, though usually only to one.

Walking is fine for those really unfit, or with health issues
Also great as a cool-down after more intense exercise
However, for the time spent, it burns comparatively few calories for a light person

Get the biggest bang for your time with HIIT

Talking I agree that lean and healthy is the goal here, absolutely what I want to achieve, and I just don’t feel it at the moment, even with BMI 22.

BCF yes ok... I will try shredd... do you think tomorrow will be ok to do it as will be on FD?

Thanks so much all of you for listening to me moan as I work this new WOL out and giving me your advice.

Most folk who exercise can do the same on an FD too
However, if you are not used to intense exercise, then I suggest Shred on some NFDs, until you get fitter

Fasted training can really boost loss around your middle
However, you can still do fasted training on NFDs, by exercising before breakfast, or doing 16:8 and exercising anytime in the morning, not eating until lunch

Tip:
10 mins before training, glug a double espresso, no sugar or milk.
It helps mobilise bodyfat for fuel
So you have extra energy and also burn more fat, win-win

That's 10 mins before fasted training, for the espresso tip

Made it through my 2nd FD of the week. Butternut soup.

I second HIIT for toning the wobbly bits. It is possible to do it on a FD and live to tell the tale. I find it harder to do the strength exercises than on a NFD. Weirdly I find it a good way to suppress my hunger pangs..... Mostly because my body is screaming to stop and is distracted from the food cravings.

Glad the bath tip worked.... You drink it back on quickly but it is good for a boost.

Stop don’t worry, it’s not all folks trying to loose the last few lbs here! My BMI is 25.5 so officially overweight I am 5’7” and currently 11st 9lb, I started at 12st 4lb. My first aim is to get below 11st, which would give me a BMI of just over 24, so back in the healthy category. I really want to get below 10 1/2 st ideally closer to 10st, which I was at my wedding - that’s still a BMI of close to 22! I was 9st 8lb at university when I was swim training and playing waterpolo 6 sessions a week - even that is still only just around a BMI of 20 and I think that’s probably totally unachievable now with a young toddler and full time job! When I do the Body type calculators I should have a slim build but I’ve always had a large bust and much below 10st I start to look unwell - I have photos of me as a bridesmaid where I’d worked really hard to be slim and you can see my collarbones protruding - it’s not a good look! So I think as TiP, BCF and others have said, it’s not about numbers (although reducing waist measurement is good), it’s abiut being lean and healthy.
Today was a NFD for me, totally calories about 1650, so around TDEE which was good but I did have half a scone in the afternoon so broke the cardinal non-snacking rule.
Tomorrow is going to be interesting, a FD with a spin class at the start! I usually find exercise OK on a FD but I’m a bit worried that doing it first thing will make me hungry all day. I do also prefer to do strength training on a FD, there’s no way I could do one of my long swim sessions on a FD evening for example.

Accidentally posted this on the end of the last thread so just repeating:

Hi Rydal I felt fine first thing, I started to get hungry around 10.00 at work which is when I normally have my first food of the day anyway. I just found on the fasting day I was really fixated on getting to dinner time though.

BigChoc I ate everything at the same time, I am trying to ease myself in though. I would happily graze all day instead of eating 3 meals. I definitely need to work on it.

One question - if my meal is around 400 calories, should I make do with that or aim to make it up to 500? Obviously I can eat less, and some people may choose to eat as little as possible on FDs, I'm just wondering what the general consensus is.

FD complete, kitchen closed. Had a thai curry with prawns, baby corn, mange-tout, spinach, bean sprouts and peppers. It worked out at 480 cals. Made the same for DH, but he had noodles with his. The DC made their own pizzas, so I did well to avoid those.

Currently sitting in a hot bath channeling fat melting thoughts .

Hi to all the new people on the thread! Keep us updated on your progress. I find the more you read/post on here, the more likely you are to stick with it.

Ah what a nice thread !

Dr Why you are very similar build to me (but lighter )

I just thought that with some portion control and Cutting the wine it would be faster but no - so 5:2 it shall be

My major accomplishment is the wine
I think (know) that I have been alcohol dependant for many year . Yet here I am on my fourth wine free night . Before I was often having half a bottle a day on bad weeks

So if I can do that I feel like I can do anything to be honest !

shoutingatme
Alcohol is my weakness. I do not "do" sweet food. But can merrily drink my TDEE in a session.
Its not good for me so I need to strongly limit the days I start

Rydal - I’m shocked by that. You don’t want to go down the route of unachievable for you. So I would say see how it goes with your 2 FDs and the calories you’ve decided.
16:8 alongside 5:2 May work for you?

Just see how it goes, you can always adjust after and I think 11,000 steps is pretty active btw.

Tip- thought that was you, I was amazed when you and BCF said chunks of the book came off this thread, really mind blowing stuff. Was that the original book or the updated version?

It’s very true what TIp says, we are also so very different, height, weight, build, body shape and also how we carry it.

Well done on the booze NSV, stop
Your liver is applauding happily too

Alcohol - like sugar - tends to add fat specifically around your stomach
Alcohol also stops any fat-burning, until your liver has finished processing the toxic byproducts of alcohol.

Dark Don't eat if you're not hungry, whether FD or NFD
However, most folk find it more sustainable to eat up to their 500 cals on FDs - just don't add any junk or sweet treats to do so

What usually has the most effect on rate of loss is what you do on NFDs - there are 5 of them every week, so try to stay within TDEE and avoid eating back most of the FD deficit,
The NFD are very useful in training you how to eat "normally", i.e. how you need to eat in maintenance to avoid regain

no snacking or grazing, whether NFDs or FDs !

stop & DrWhy we are all similar size but I have no boobs... My weight just goes on all over. I look like a tube.

I am finding wine avoidance the hardest bit. I focus on feeling better in the morning and not having to breathe in to get my waistband done up.

If you have a few stone to lose:

Don't worry that we're talking about the last few lb - some folk have got to this stage by losing stones earlier
Several folk over the years have started at BMI 40 or 45 and they lose pretty quickly the first few months, especially the first few weeks

Any 5:2ers reading who started at high BMI, do chime in to encourage those who are now where you started

Mines not completely 100% 5:2 related but

My BMI was 30 prior to doing BSD. I did 12 weeks on this before finding 5:2 as I was clearly living under a rock and knew nothing about it. I started 5:2 with a BMI of 27 and am now at BMI 19.7.

It’s taken me a long time and I’ve really struggled at times as I had quite a bad binge eating issue last year. As soon as I got anywhere remotely close to target I basically binged and ended up gaining between 7-9lbs at a time. But not binged now for a good few months as I’ve religiously stuck to the no snacking rule if I want a treat I now have it directly after a meal.

I have been a lot larger in the past and my highest BMI was 33.9 and I’m just over 5ft2.

This way of life is utterly amazing!

BCF TELL US YOUR STORY

I started my 5:2 journey at 12st 12lbs in July last year (so about 7 months ago) after giving birth to DD (my second DC) in April. My BMI then was 30.8 (obese) and my waist measurement was in the "do something urgently" range. I'm 5'4" and relatively slim built (minus the boobs and bum).

Today my BMI is 23 and for the first time in my adult life the first number on the scales is a '9'. I'd still like to lose a bit more, but I'm relaxed with how I look for the first time in years. Still a few wobbly bits but that's life post pregnancy for you.

I'm absolutely determined to stick with this WOL from now on (especially since I've now given away the aforementioned 6 bags of bigger clothes to the charity shop )

Good to meet the other 12 stoners !

Re alcohol I think you have to hate it to stop . Same with me for smoking I got a really bad chest infection and that did it for me .

After xmas I felt vile , my body ached I even felt like my liver ached - and I hated myself . Hated myself for not being able to go without a drink . It took me a long time to get to that stage ! Anyway I don’t want to derail but I think if you are having a few glasses here and there it’s probably harder to kick ?

I’ve lost 2 and a half stone to get to where I am now. My goal weight is fairly generous as I’m tall, well built and have a big bust. My waist to height ratio is good, but every other stat sucks.

As soon as I got anywhere remotely close to target I basically binged and ended up gaining between 7-9lbs at a time.
Same here! I was looking back at my weight loss and I was the same weight in Oct as I am now. I’ve been losing and gaining the same 7lbs since then!

On the plus side, I’m doing a pretty good job at maintaining.

I do the binging thing. I wonder if it is our body trying to go back to our set point?

Weigh in today and 9.9! Very hapy that my binging hasnt stopped weight loss, in fact down another 3lbs!

I’m another 2lbs down, 11lbs in total since 2nd January. Determined to be in the next stone bracket next week, so need to lose 0.75 of a lb to get there - which will be tough because we’ve got a few celebrations this week. Might have to do my first B2B next week eek!

Well don pumper!

Bloody hell pumper that’s a fantastic result.

Best 3lbs, fabulous that’s loads.

Maz - it’s hard isn’t it, a viscous circle if you will. It’s only this year I’ve been loosing I was loosing the same 7lbs the same as you since September. But you’ve lost 2 stone that’s amazing. Keep ploughing through.

I’ve notice my trend, on my scales app I start a new page for every diet and it dates back to 2014 every year I start a diet at 12 stone. That must be when my brain says enough diet now.

Wow Bug, that’s absolutely amazing.