5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

bug Dr Johnson who helped a large number of patients with asthma by using ADF (every other day fasting) wrote that he and his patients had excellent results wrt reduction of symptoms with various degrees of fasting on FDs: 20 / 25 / 40 / 50% TDEE

He has since researched fasting for other health benefits too and weight loss.
For weight loss, 25% TDEE gives quicker results and is cited by Varady as a good compromise to optimise loss while ensuring muscle retention.

I just checked his book and he eats too much (nice to see human authors !) so he has to maintain weight via ADF.
He maintains on ADF with 50% TDEE on FDs, because this is enough to fully activate SIRT1 for health benefits.
In fact, he cited a study that even skipping one meal on alternate days, to give 75%TDEE, will activate SIRT1 to some extent

So, although most research is on 5:2 or ADF, with usually 500 cals (for women) or 800 on BSD
for those who find these FDs too tough, it seems reasonable that 3 miniFDs (800-1000 cals) should bring similar weight loss, plus some health benefits too

I recommend 3 rather than 2 for those wishing to lose weight, to get roughly the same calorie deficit as 5:2
(5:2 BSD is different, because it is also daily low carb, hence only 2 x 800 FDs)

For those of us maintaining, who also want to maximise health benefits, I suggest
either 2 x 500 cals FDs
or 2 x 800 FDs plus one 70% TDEE day
Obviously eating above TDEE on other NFDs, to avoid dropping below Happy Weight.

Thanks BCF that's good to know. I think I'll take that approach on those weeks when a 500 FD isn't possible, but a mini is.

Only 0.5lb off this week again - plenty of water, no snacks, 1400 every day, no more than 550 cals on FDs - so still waiting for my period BUT STILL. So much effort for so little reward, I could cry. Woosh better come soon

Damage limitation yesterday complete, FD done and back to maintenance weight. Surprised as I’d managed to gain 4lbs but it must of been undigested food.

Thabks BCF I will bang that in YouTube and see what all those recommended weight lifts are.

I’m alright doing weights, I’m quite strong but ours are 10kg dumbbells so I can’t do very many. I need to avoid lifting from chest due to implants.

It be really nice to mix up my workout a bit so I’m looking forward to that later.

Anyone on there FD today?

Hang in there Pumper, it will shift soon. What week are you on now?

Think I’m week four quacking but two rubbish losses out of those four 😡

Morning everyone, nice to read all the tips and encouragement on the thread.

I took BigChoc's advice and had nfd Tuesday and Wednesday, so fd today. I've got chicken and cauli rice for lunch, and planning a ham omelette with lots of salad leaves and cucumber for supper. I think I'll find the midweek fasts tougher than the Monday ones, but it's nice to think I can then relax over the weekend.

Good luck any Thursday fasters- we can do it!

I know it’s disappointing pumper but honestly keep with it.

How much have you lost all together? I have personally found week 3 & 4 is my dreaded weeks usually stay the same looking at my stats. Every time I’ve restarted it’s the same. It feels like your body is clining to those lbs before releasing them then lets you go for a bit more before saying stop that’s too much. Then off it goes again.

Keep the faith pumper - a big whoosh will happen very soon I am sure.

BCF that is really interesting Re the benefits of all different types of fasting.

Quacking I too have taken a note of BCFs suggestions on building upper strength. For future purpose when I am ready to work on that.

FD today but my weird bug is still continuing since Monday. Dodgy tummy, off my food (but going through the motions of eating small portions on NFD), very low energy and waking up with sore throat every morning. Is very strange as since starting FDs I have been feeling great and full of energy.

DH thinks my body is adjusting to the FDs and has gone into some weird repelling mode. He also thinks I am not eating enough fruit. It's true I have virtually stopped eating fruit, fruit juice and even sugar (apart from
The occasional chocolate). However I am consuming vegetables at greater quantities.

Is there something about people's bodies getting bugs once you have been fasting for a couple of months? Just trying to see if they are related or maybe it's just a bug.

Should be able to do FD today as have no appetite.

FD for me today. My favourite kind of FD - no kids, home office at the bottom of the garden to myself, so no staring at food all day, and a massive piece of work to concentrate on.

FD for me also, but struggling, I have a mild headache and I am trying to drinks lots of water, I went running last night and I don't think I drink enough when I get back as I've noticed every time I do exercise I wake up with a dry mouth.

Pump My body is also clinging on to everything at the moment and despite keeping to the program there is no scales movement, its frustrating but I know it will happen just have to keep with it.

Good luck to all Thursday Fasters!

Snail - that sounds like a fabulous FD to me.

Blue - have faith, those scales will move. Have you taken some paracetamol/ ibruprofin for your headache? Sometimes something even very small to eat helps me out as I get them quite a lot. A couple of slices ham / boiled egg.

I’ve lost 11 and 3/4 - about 5 3/4 on 5:2. I’ve got set markers too, something on the end of March, end of April, mid-June, two things in July - and I’m now 4lbs behind schedule. And I can’t even do anything about it - I can’t eat less, I know everyone says this but I genuinely have had no snacks, no binges, logged everything. I can’t excercise with two buggy-hating children bar going to the park and walking, which we do every day anyway.

Sorry for the moan everyone. Feeling totally demotivated today 😡

Quacking I'm at work so can't get hold of any food but luckily I found some cuppa soups in my draw just having one now and hoping it will do the trick, fingers crossed.

Pump moan away, we don't mind. I have been in your position many times, for some unexplained reason the scales won't budge its like your body is fighting against you (in my case its saying you know it will only go back on again so what's the point!) But keep with it because it will happen.

Pumper - were you on another diet before switching to 5:2? That’s a lot of weight you’ve lost there. Prob just your body playing tricks on you but it will shift again. And sounds like your doing everything spot on.

Blue - great news on the cuppa soup, hopefully that should do the trick! Do you take water with you on your run?

Good afternoon everyone.

Its a FD for me and I feel very indulged due to the fact I can have 800 calories. My breakfast was the full english out of the 5:2BSD recipe book but I didnt have the sausage, and a had a slice of haggis instead of the black pudding. It came in at 333 calories.

Id intended to fast until this evening but the house has been a circus today with 2 lots of workmen who almost had me reaching for a gin at 11am but I managed to stop myself and instead I had a small bowl of salad at 2.30. Its something someone made up for me and it had chopped cucumber, a tinned pineapple ring, quarter of an apple, chilli and mint in it. It was left to sit for half an hour and it meant there was a couple of spoons of juice to make it taste even better. It really was the most fabulous thing.

Dinner wise its the Kofta Curry from the same book breakfast was from.

I hope everyone is having a good day and that the fasters are not struggling too much.

FD today for me! I always find my second one much easier mentally than my first- I think it's because I know a have a few day's break afterwards.

Good to know re damage limitation quacking- we can all learn from you now you are at maintenance!

Little Lady- relaxing over the weekend is so lovely isn't it? Even though I eat to TDEE most of the time psychologically it feels like an indulgence.

Slinky- I have had a similar thing since beginning of Jan. Not really ill but meh.

Pump- this has been my experience too. I lose very slowly and in fits and starts. Just keep going !. I just don't weigh now but go by how I feel and jump on scales every now and then. Get very demoralised otherwise.

Fionne- pineapple whatsit sounds delicious!

Fionne - if you like sausages can I recommend chicken sausages to you or turkey ones. They are really yummy a lot lower in calories and carbs. I found ASDA has a very good selection and a few different flavors.

quacking not a specific diet, just calorie counting to take advantage of dry January after too much Christmas excess. Then I was talking to a friend about 5.2 and thought I’d give it a bash. Thing is, it actually suits me well, I’ve got two busy days per week which are perfect for fast days, I don’t have a sweet tooth and I already drink loads of water. My problem has always been portion control and a tendency to binge. So if I can knock that on the head - which I can, because I’ve been doing it for a month - then there’s no reason I can’t lose weight and keep it off. Until I get to two rubbish losses in two weeks and think BLEUGHGGHHHH

Right, I’ve shoved a bit of cake into my face, given my head a shake and I’m back on it. Thanks for all the sympathy folks, feel better for the moan

Good luck on your 2nd FD, lawyer and good luck to all the other Thursday fasters.

Slinky Fasting tends to help the immune system
BUT
if you have an upset stomach (or a fever), stop fasting until a week after symptoms have gone.
This is because your gut needs the extra time to recover - and fasting can indeed irritate a dodgy stomach until you have recovered fully

avoid fruit juice - this also irritates a dodgy tum, because of concentrated sugar & acid.
Don't have more than 1 portion fruit per day until your tum recovers
Also no alcohol and cut right back on coffee - these are also stomach irritants

In the meantime, go for healthy maintenance within TDEE: lots of water, no snacking

You have done well to improve eating habits, pumper
but with a low TDEE like yours, the expected loss is about ⅔ lb per week

On totm, in these circumstances, you are doing very well to lose anything - many women gain a few lb of temporarily retained water
This water will be released the FD following complete end of totm - but you need to keep drinking water

Since you lost several lb right before with a standard daily calorie restriction diet, you probably wouldn't get the higher initial loss that most folk see.
If you are already within healthy BMI, loss will also be much slower than if you had a long way to go.

So, relax and be patient, accept that average loss for you is likely to be under 1lb per week and stay on track

Pumper I'm the same and there are a couple others on here too who are bingers and big-portioners!

That's the biggest thing I've had to work on. No snacking def helps.

Pumper - my portion control was unbelievable before I started 5:2. Our dinner plates are absolutely huge I really do need to change them.

My dinners still look massive as I fill my plate up but with lower calorie foods like tomatoes 2/3 salad tomatoes all cut up takes up lots of room. I basically slice everything so it fools my brain as it looks like I’m eating loads.

Was a binger too, as peachy said the no snacking rule has pretty much stopped me dead in my tracks. As soon as I acted on that rule it’s made it a million times easier.

Hi everyone.

Fast day going well so far- although my department ordered pizza for lunch, so I went out to buy a birthday present to avoid the smell and the Oliver Bonas lady then thrust handfuls of Lindor truffles at me!

It makes such a difference mentally to think to myself 'I can have all the Lindor/pizza I want tomorrow'- even though when it gets to tomorrow I'm fairly certain I won't have them! It seems to give me time to process the craving, think about whether I truly want that thing, then make a better choice rather than just mindlessly accepting junk because it's offered.

Well done littlelady you are doing great. Yep that’s the motto “I can have it tomorrow” but you do tend to find that tomorrow never comes.

Great progress, lawyer
As a maintainer, I can now totally ignore all goodies offered on FDs, genuinely not a strain to refuse.
It's about learning longterm habits, which are essential to longterm weight management, i.e. the rest of your life after reaching goal

As well as our 5:2 mantra "I can have it tomorrow"

I often post this useful reminder re office / staffroom food:

"communal food is strewn with poo crumbs and slathered in snot !