5:2 Thread No. 73: Go up a gear and enjoy life in the Fasting Lane. Let science boost your performance.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabete UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Peachy - the only thing I can say is stick with it. I’ve found I was frequently grinding to a halt and it’s disheartening. It’s like your body is saying that’s enough. Then off it goes again and you continue to loose.

For me it was impossible task while I was still binging, one blow out for 2 days would set me back months.

Back in beginning of September I was 4lbs away from target. 2 day binge and I gained 7lbs. I started loosing again slowly but had another binge towards the end of September that saw me have another gain that took me up to + 4lbs on top of the 7lbs.
It’s taken 4 months to recover from that and I’ve had to be very strict.

That’s the last time I’ve binged as for me that was the turning point. Months worth of hard work undone in a day or two and I found it harder and harder mentally. I changed my FDs so I could no longer do it. I now fast when I’m alone to take away that temptation.

Pumper lol it's all good the more info the merrier!

BCF has already given some great advice peachy. Personally I find not drinking enough water stalls me. Hopefully you will see a whoosh shortly so stick with it. Are you fasting today?

Can you do daily 14:10 as well, to increase fasting?

On any WOE, most people have a plateau at one or more stages, after losing say a stone
Especially if you are at an earlier "set point", where you have been for some years, because the body tries to resist further loss

A plateau is at least 3 weeks without loss and it can last for several weeks.
Stay patient and keep going.

This pause can sometimes be because the fat has already been burned , but the empty fat cells have refilled with water, as the body tries to maintain weight
People in this case find there is a sudden "whoosh" and the water is released, so they drop a few lb
Some 5:2ers here could tell you about their "whoosh"
Do keep drinking though, because your body must be well-hydrated to release this water

If possible, add the 2-5 minute Fat Blasts, see the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 OP, on 3-5 days per week,
This can improve insulin metabolism (the aim is not to burn calories, as the time is too short, but to remove the roadblock)

Around age 40 is typically when pre-meno affects hormones which cause weight gain, even before you notice any symptoms

Congrats blue and congrats quacking - I'm another one who started off with similar stats to yours so you reaching your target is so inspirational. And particular congrats on beating the binge eating. That must have been such a challenge. You've really boosted my mood on this FD which I'm finding quite hard just because it's so cold! Going to run round the garden with puppy soon, who is an absolute and utter joy.

Oh, and the other reason today's FD is hard is because it's son's birthday tomorrow and he has requested that I make red velvet cake with pink champagne truffles. I'll have to make the sponge and the truffles tonight, aaaargh. Still, something big to look forward to tomorrow! And reaching min-target of healthy BMI at the weekend is helping me stay focused.

I'm thinking about doing this so following x

Staying strong but planning early dinner later to stop a massive give-up binge.

I have some non food shopping to do plus I'm planning to go swimming. Not sure how far I'll get while hungry but hopefully it'll be a good distraction!

Everyone in my office is currently eating the noisiest food and the hr director has just bought 300 doughnuts for the ward staff as we're so busy today. I'm not on the ward so it's not for me but still, I have to look at them! 😩

Come take the plunge, MrsJelly

Focus on your healthy BMI target, snail, remember how proud you were
and chant our fav 5:2 mantra:

"I can have it tomorrow"

Oh boy, I am so going to have it tomorrow! And it's Pancake Day as well as his birthday. I might even give myself a day off MFP and have an official Feasting Day. I have been logging everything there religiously, FDs and NFDs, for the last 37 days...

Sorry missed all the posts that crossed with mine then was back from my work break!

Pumper- I really hope you get to wear something fabulous! It will be so nice to choose whatever you want rather than being limited by size.

I totally agree with all of the things you have said. I have seen you write them down here so many times and yet I still don't do all of them!

I am still snacking. Not in the morning but in the late afternoon.

I think I fall under light exercise if I go one level lower- I do hiit and a run Monday, walk fast for 30 mins tues/wed/thurs, weights and run Fri and one run over weekend. I think that's moderate?

I don't very often eat the junky stuff- it triggers bingeing in me. However I can eat over TDEE at weekends. Don't drink at all so that not a prob thank God.

Re water I don't drink any at all! I drink a lot of tea and coffee but I know that doesn't count!

You've hit the nail on the head about a set weight- my body really likes being 12 stone! Even though I'm two stone overweight.

Wah re perimeno!!! I can't bear the thought of it!

Quacking I find your posts so so heartening. I binged majorly over Christmas and gained nearly a stone, and it's now taking me forever to get back. I need to address this- thing is, I really enjoy bingeing- I'm like an alcoholic but with food if that makes sense. Thank you for your kindness.

Snail- that CAKE! Your son is very lucky! And doughnuts Mother arghhhh!

Very grateful for this thread, so thank you.

peachy OK, mainly 3 issues if you want to achieve your 40th Bday goals:

1. Your TDEE calc
   Walking is great for psychological health, but burns little
   You really exercise on 3 days per week, so that makes you "lightly active" - especially since progress has stopped on the higher TDEE and you are nearly age 40
   Cut back on sugary treats and alcohol, also deep-fried food and pizza, which are usually the big calorie bombs

2. STOP Snacking

Snacking - even "healthy" snacks like fruit - raises insulin and keeps it raised, which switches your bod from fat-burning to fat-storing
It also increases overall hunger, so you want to eat more on NFDs … a damaging spiral

Make a no-snacking habit lifelong , not just for the weight loss phase;
otherwise you are more likely to regain as soon as soon as you get to goal

3. drink water ! Your body will really struggle to burn fat without sufficient water

Start each day with a glass, keep water with you all day and keep glugging.

The difference between dreams and reality is action - in changing habits

He is indeed lucky, peachypips. (And also has rather expensive tastes.) If I get through this then I'm going to award myself the inaugural 5:2 Thread Standing Firm In The Face Of Temptation Award.

Peachy - I did mean to add but BCF has also said.

It’s the no snacking rule that has also been most beneficial to me. I’ve only fully embraced it in the last few months but since fully embracing it I haven’t binged. As I’m too full.

Still eat some crap now and again and did every day over Xmas but made it part of the meal immediately after. Your doing damage limitation as it’s pretty much impossible to binge as you are so full.

Previously I used to do it on a empty stomach and absolutely gorge. Literally 1000s of calories worth.

Honestly my dear it’s a game changer. Just take it day by day.

And I feel the same as you, I used to enjoy it at the time. Then feel discussted with myself and low and it would then trigger it off again. It’s a addiction.

I'm imagining the doughnuts are very dry (it's amazing what my brain believes).

Finished work so off for a swim.

Apologies for all the posts, it's helping me a lot today 😁 and for the first time in a long time I feel I can stick to this. 2017 involved a stay in the USA plus a house move with 3 young dc so I was so busy sorting everything I really didn't focus on me. Dh is being really helpful too and supporting me but his and dd1's birthday will be a test later in the month! But a little cake as dessert on a non FD is fine

That's exactly it quacking- enjoy it at the time then feel disgusted afterwards!!

I will commit this week to no eating between meals. Feels a real hurdle to me. Will try and up my water too. It's so hard to change habits.

We shall bestow the award upon you snail if you face the temptation with strength and courage. You shall overcome!

Those doughnuts are so so dry. They are crumbly and horrible.

BCF, could you please clear up my confusion re apples. According to the 5:2 they are good food choice but other information Im reading about what foods are good when on a low carb way of eating it says they are high in sugar and should be avoided.

Thank you

Peachy - just get a bottle of water and sip it. Don't think. Just take it everywhere with you. It will become habit. Dilute it if that helps

I held out all day and just had a cheesy scrambled egg. Think I've come in at around 400-500 cals do kitchen closed for me. Will be having an early night

Changing those habits is the way to goal, peachy
If you want your 40th dream, that's the way.
Sadly, none of us can get away with eating the way we could in our younger days

Donuts to celebrate such special occasions are a must on NFDs, m0ther

The local bakery here bakes mini-donuts with chocolate glazing, so light, mmm
Since 5:2, I find jam / sugary / sprinkly donuts, or those with fillings, to be unbearably sweet
So my tastes have changed
Also, I no longer eat 6 of them at once !

I cannot stand mass-produced donuts either, e.g. last time I was in England, I tried one bite of a Crispy Creme and wanted to retch at the harsh chemical taste
My palate has definitely become more sensitive

Fionne Ordinary 5:2 is not low carb on NFDs, whereas you are low carbing wit 5:2 BSD
You are able to lose weight with 800 cal FDs, because your food type is restricted to low carb, every day.

However, if you read Mosely's BSD book - well worth buying for reference, say as Kindle - then his low carb Mediterranean is much less strict than classic Atkins-type low carb

• that is why you can have your 70-100g carbs daily.

Fruit:
Mosely allows apples, pears as well as the usual berries that low Atkins allows later
eat the whole fruit, with skin, not pureed as in apple sauce

He does NOT allow high sugar fruits: mango, banana, pineapple, dried fruits like raisins or prunes
Also NO fruit juices, because of the concentrated sugar
and NO fruit sugar / fructose sweetener - these are particularly bad for the liver and for T2

Note
No more than 2 portions per day even of low sugar fruit and best not on FDs
and no commercial fruit compote, which normally have added sweeteners

Other differences to Atkins
For better blood sugar control - proven in studies - Mosely recommends plenty of beans, lentils, peas
Also full-fat natural Greek yoghurt

My previous post all refers to the 5:2 BSD food choices,
not to ordinary 5:2, where food types are your own choice on NFDs

Thank you BCF, I forgot to add the BSD when typing because in my head I just call it the BSD.

And I have the book. It was reading it that set off my curiosity and prompted some googling that confused me.

Thanks

Hurray @BigChocFrenzy not just me who doesn't like Krispy Kreme!

Sadly today's were local bakery ones.

Managed to swim 1km and have eaten dinner. Kitchen closed at 492.

Was feeling great until I weighed myself. Oh well, I'll keep going and hopefully will see results very soon.