5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

WOW !
Big discovery - ice cream you can have on an FD !
Or of course on NFDs too

I just posted on the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 :
The most delic protein ice cream from SciTec Nutrition - v low sugar, so simple to make
taste & mouth feel just like a good quality "normal" ice, but no sugar spike. So one small bowl was a sufficiently filling supper to close the kitchen.

(I had a 12 pm lunch of beef stew with a big plate of 6 veg, then 4 pm spin)

Thank you bigchoc it feels like we've been celebrating for a month. Cake is made and I ate some mixture but put it on mfp. Aiming for a 1200 day today and FD Tuesday. Full of cold and feeling rubbish (perfect for a party with 20 kids 😴)

Monday I'm going to a friend's and they're getting Chinese - any idea what's a "good" choice?

I hope your cold goes v soon, Mother - with a kids party, aaarghh !

For Chinese^ Meal:^
Good choices:
Stir-fry protein, Szechuan prawns, steamed veg, boiled rice

Avoid:
egg-fried rice, sweet & sour, prawn crackers, anything battered or "crispy" (= deepfried)

Need some advice from any 5:2 experts
On a 500 calorie day is it better to have 1 meal or break it down across the day. To get the most benefit? Or does it not make a difference?

Also, I do daily yoga. Do you think they'd be any issues with stop losing my daily practice on a fasting day?

Thanks for any help

I have fallen off this thread and off the wagon. My last fast day was an epic epic fail. I am back on it today because I can feel my jeans getting a bit less forgiving. Centerparcs in 2 weeks and I won't be in the 12s like I had hoped stupid woman

Welcome, few
FD Meals
Divide your 500 cals in whatever timing is sustainable for you - sustainability is important.

However, most folk find it easier to have just zero cals - just black coffee or tea - for breakfast
and then either save all cals for a good supper, or divide into lunch & supper
If you have no preference about meal timing, there may be a slight fat-burning advantage in saving all your calories for supper.

What is important on FDs: no alcohol or junky / high sugar food,
e.g. fruit juice, sugary breakfast cereals, biscuits, cake, crisps, deep-fried nibbles etc

Also best NOT to snack, just have the 1-2 meals:
even "healthy" snacks keep insulin raised, which increases overall hunger and can hinder fat-burning
Avoid fruit on its own, because of the insulin spike - have it as part of your meal(s)

FD Exercise
Most exercisers can continue as normal on FDs, but a few folk can't
Try it and see

Exercise that works best:
(because it either requires a low rate of fuel, or can readily access bodyfat)
Either low intensity, e.g. a walk or gentle yoga
Or high intensity, e.g. HIIT, weightlifting / resistance training, "hardcore" tough yoga

Tip: about 10 mins before exercise, glug down a black double espresso no sugar. Or a similar high-caffeine no cal drink.
This helps mobilize bodyfat stores for fuel

What is difficult:
(because your glycogen stores will be lower on FDs and this type of exercise tends to prefer this as fuel)
medium intensity cardio, e.g. long runs or swims
Alternative for these: do a short session (20 mins or less, including warmup & cooldown) of sprint intervals

Don't be so tough on yourself, ouch
Move on and focus on the next 2 weeks before your vacation

I suggest a variation to accelerate things just for that short time:

• 1000 cal "miniFDs" on Mon+Wed+Fri
• Cut out all snacks - just eat meals, FDs and NFDs
• Cut out all alcohol. Boost water to 2l per day
• 2:5 your sweet treats, i.e. just one sensible portion and on only 2 NFDs per week

Can you identify any avoidable triggers, or dangerous times on FDs ?
Or what makes you overindulge on NFDs ?

Oh Ouch! Try not to lose heart and/or focus! Everyone has a blip and goes off track a bit occasionally. Today is a new day and a chance to start afresh! We're all here to support you so don't worry! You have 2 weeks until your holidays and you can still make some headway!

Fd here for me today. Planning on a small 100kcal salad for lunch and then a stir fry later. I'm now aiming for 9.5st or thereabouts so about 5lb to go. I'm not anticipating this last bit will be quick but we shall see.

Good luck to all those fasting today!

I love how flexible 5:2 is, it's totally ok to fall off a little because it's so easy to get back on. DH's recovery is slower than hoped, so I'm home another two days, will just bump my FD's to Wednesday/Friday and it's all ok. Have definitely been over TDEE on NFD's but I'll get back on track once life settles down again. Like singing says, blips happen, life happens.

Sorry to hear your dh's recovery is slower than hoped Mother. Hope he's getting there and that he's being a good patient!!!

Life definitely does happen and as you say, this is absolutely why this is such a brilliant WOE!

bcf I've just been exhausted this last week, and DD has been (sorry DD) absolutely horrendous. She had a 40 minute long public meltdown when I tried to do a FD, legged it into the car park as I buckled the baby in his seat, took 2 strangers to get her into her own car seat. Screamed all the way home. By the time she calmed down I was in no form for peeling and chopping and I said fuck It, opened a bottle of wine and ordered a pizza that was Friday, then I had guests stay over on Saturday so we had panang curry and wontons and they brought prosecco and crisps and croissants for the next morning. To my small credit I didn't eat any of the Haribo or chocolate that they brought, going cold turkey on sweets helped.

Anyway DD appears to be acting a bit human again and is at preschool 3 days a week again from tomorrow anyway, so that will be easier and I'll have a bit of free time while the baby naps to sleep clean and exercise and meal prep.

Nice scale victory. 14st 10.8 so 2 stone loss now. 1st 10 to go

Still here. Fridays weigh in was 1lb off, bringing me to an even stone in 7 weeks. NSVs over the weekend too as I went shopping for new clothes. Felt good for the first time in a while really.

No fasting today unfortunately; I have a chest infection I can't seem to shake so holding off. Hoping to be able to honour my usual Thursday fast though!

Ouch sympathies on difficult preschoolers- I took mine out for a lovely day out bank holiday Monday and she whined constantly that it was home time.

Overdid it calorie wise at weekend (cake at work). Think I need more rules for NFDs! FD today, went to lunchtime circuits and feel good!

I had a bad scales reaction to TOTM. +8lbs and

I know it'll be back to normal in no time, but I just can't face fasting for some reason!

FD today, so far... 513. I'll have to have some veggies tonight, so it's going to be higher than I wanted. Managed 2L of water already, so that's good.

Overall feeling

gust TOTM always does for me too. Water retention and sluggish digestion . Just think how great you'll feel when all that weight whooshes off.

Thanks for the pep talk everyone. I have had a tofu stir fry for lunch and will have a huge piece of cod and some veg for dinner. Factor in tea and a miso soup and I'm on track for an 800 cal day. I will do 2 1000 cal days this week. TOTM creeping up on me too so don't expect great results this week but hopefully the numbers will be heading in the right direction again next week.

Well done on the pound and the NSV fire, hope the infection clears soon. ollivander that's an amazing loss, well done.

Congrats on your SV and 2 stone milestone, Ollivander
Great progress

Congrats to you too, Fire on your SV and stone milestone, also that motivating clothes NSV

Do take care of yourseff with that nagging chest infection
I recommend TLC:

• Cut out any cardio sessions of more than 30 mins - prolonged cardio weakens the immune system
• Plenty of sleep
• Lots of water
• Avoid booze, sugar or other junk. Avoid fizzy drinks.
• Have masses of veg with your meals - with plenty of fried / roast garlic cloves if you can !
• Fruit for pud

Ouch Your trigger is clearly coping with your DD's 40 min public meltdown and then her screaming all the way home.
Um .... I think we'd probably all cave in under those circs !

Recite the MN mantra "this too shall pass" - she'll be lovely in 20 years time ....

Gust Some women retain several lb of water around totm, due to the hormonal changes
You probably feel bloated too
The totm munchies - for salty, sweet, fatty calorie dense foods are also caused by hormones.

However, after this totm ends, then you should see the water and bloat the morning after your FD following.
Or possibly with 8lb retained water, it may take until after the 2nd FD to disappear

If you can resist the munchies, then you might see on the scales that another lb bodyfat is also gone.

You are doing well, ouch, not long to go

I'm sticking to my FD - despite a nightmare evening:

I came home to a flooded bathroom < AARGH ! >
I cancelled my planned spin class and phoned my friendly local plumber to fit me in after work and he has just left:
the seal in the loo pipe has blown, so he will come tomorrow morning to fix it, as well as adjusting the cistern.

So, I'm mopping floors instead of enjoying a cheerful spin class < snarl >
A nice herbal culpa tea is awaiting.

cuppa tea

Great thanks for your advice bigchoc

FD tomorrow eeek!

Encouraging groups really do help keep up motivation.

Thanks BCF! I'm trying to look after myself.

Sorry about your lost spin class, that's no way to start the week!

Finishing FD on about 600 kcal today. Not great, but my motivation has taken a bit of a nose dive. The weather here is particularly cold and rainy so I've struggled a bit more than usual. Summer is officially over in Northern Scotland (not that it ever really got started )

Will fit in another FD on Wednesday before going on holiday on Thursday. We're half board so I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to do food-wise as 16:8 won't really be an option. We're only away for a week, so hopefully even if it does all go to pot I can't do too much damage in 7 days...right?!

Congratulations on all the SVs and NSVs over the last few days. And I hope your plumbing problem is quickly resolved BCF - do you have another toilet you can use in the meantime?!

BCF That's dreadful, did you want to cry a bit? Hope you have access to another toilet?

Kitchen closed on 850 calories because I had a tiny (all carefully weighed) bit of sauce with my cod and veg.

To reassure kind 5:2ers, my friendly plumber has shown me how to switch off the water by the loo, then switch it back on to flush, then switch off again.

As I live alone (and no.2 has already happened - tmi !) I'll aim to just flush once before the plumber comes in the morning.

ouch I don't do tears - I'm scary and I snarl !
See me: