5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Gustofwind, good for you. You can do it. When I feel weary in the evenings on a fast day I go to bed! I leave the door open so my kids know I'm here, I'm not totally ignoring them, but if the temptation is bad downstairs, take it upstairs. I think then your brain just accepts that's it for today stomach.

I'm going to start doing a tracking weight this way so I know where I'm up to
starting weight 234lbs
Current weight 209lbs
Goal weight 182lbs

Doesn't look as bad written that way!

It looks like great progress Ollivander.

I have lost a mere four pounds in about ten weeks of trying to lose. I'm bringing in the big guns now. Science. I can feel that my blood sugar is down. Or I can feel something. I could go to sleep now. I went for a cycle in to town and back this morning though and felt fine and that was before I'd eaten anything. It's taken its toll now though. So looking forward to a normal day tomorrow. herbal tea

Good progress, Ollivander

Pagan If it helps, what I usually have on FDs:
A huge mixed salad, dressed with balsamic vinegar, plus protein - usually a salmon fillet, occasionally prawns or fillet steak strips.
If that's my only meal of the FD, I might add a v small portion of quinoa or red / brown rice, or just some nuts / avocado.

If I have a 2nd meal, then it's yoghurt & berries as a minimeal

Basically,
choose masses of non-starchy veg
add a good dollop of protein
optionally a small portion starchy carbs

Some folk like stirfries - e.g. prawns & veg - or curries or stew instead of salad.

Looks like what raises your insulin is:
sugary sauces, highly processed food, white bread - but one medium slice of wholegrain should be ok

Some readymade meals are low GI / low carb, but most are not - best to read labels.

Low carb FDs work well.

Very busy week here and haven't had time to catch up with the thread!

Usual Monday and Thursday fasts have payed off, I'm down another 2lb this week . 13lb in 6 weeks. I'll be pleased once I get past the 1 stone mark.

This is around where I usually fall off the wagon though so trying to keep motivated. I have an event to attend mid September and would like a new outfit!

Hello everyone & happy summer.

I'm back after a month off due to being on a very long holiday and then giving myself time to recover from jet lag and get back to work. I've just done my 2 FDs for the week and thankfully I'm the same weight I was (10.9) before going on holiday. I didn't do any FDs as it wasn't practical. However I stuck to a rough 16:8 the majority of the time so I guess that helped.

Not happy with the pictures of myself this summer so want to get on and lose more weight. I've got just over a stone to go.

Also need to get on and incorporate more exercise into my life. Keep meaning to look at the fat blasts that BCF mentions. Perhaps this weekend.

Stay with it fire! It's worth it!

I am back in Northern Ireland visiting family. I haven't seen most of them since early May. Without exception every one I have seen has gone like this and said "Wow you look great!" Very motivating. I have only done 1 FD this week, on Monday, but I am sticking to a 'healthy maintenance' plan - doing a rough version of 16:8, no sugar, no snacking, and I don't drink much alcohol anyway, then I can squeeze 2 FDs in next week.

Great compliment NSV Ouch! And Ollivander, wow, you're doing amazing, already 25lb down you are almost halfway to your goal!

I stepped on the scales this morning, 13st 12.8. I think I am firmly into the 13's, feels great. I know the loss rate will gradually slow down, but I am still aiming for 13st in 9 weeks, when I go overseas for work for a week.

Well I am a bit this morning. Was excitedly expecting to see an 11...and even had my phone camera ready to take a picture of my badly painted toenails as proof (channeling Ollivander's style). But nope. 12 st 0 pounds. Hmph. Didn't weigh last week but am 2 pounds down on 2 weeks ago, so at least things are moving (despite having 2 ridiculous junk days last week).

I'll just need to be patient...

Congrats on the SVs Fire and MShip and the NSVs Ouch. Oh and welcome back Crocus - I also need to get my butt in gear and start exercising more.

Good luck to any Friday Fasters!

ouchBollocks that's brilliant! It reminds us that the scales is not the full story. I seem to be nine stone whether I am trying to lose weight or not! The one good thing I could have said was that if I went on holiday I did not put on weight. Watching Michael Mosely clips on line I'd say that's because I was having only two meals! And eating more fat, and not snacking in between meals. Anyway, I was in Belfast the other day and I loved the Titanic exhibition. I want to go back with my geeky son. Good shopping too, all of the shops and all fairly compact. I'll be back.

So after two fasts this week Monday and Thursday, as suggested by Michael Mosely and Mohammed, I forgot to weigh myself this morning. I woke up with a headache so I just ate, strawberries and coffee with milk and then soda bread with butter. Apologies to anybody fasting today. Tomorrow I must remember. Please please let the needle have dipped below nine.

Well done on your SV, Fire Excellent progress
You've identified your danger time, so post here if you feel you are straying off track

Congrats on your SV too, Mship Your pre-trip goal sounds very doable.

Well done on your sts over the vacation, Crocus You've nailed your FDs very promptly on returning
< my autocorrect keeps changing "sts" to "sex" ! >

Great compliments NSV, Ouch You know you have made a visible difference with this WOL

No snacking can make a big difference, Pagan both to weight loss and stable insulin, naturally related

Forget last week's junk days and just move on, bug
Weight loss is what happens over a period of weeks.
Just relax, continue to retrain your NFD habits for the longterm and you'll reach your goals.

Yes The problem I have is that I have been watching my weight for years so everything, LOW GI, no snacking, mediterranean, eating in narrower windows, fasting.... you name it I'm doing it 90% of the time. I do eat out (dont usually have dessert though) and I do have wine with dinner once or twice a week. But I dont want to rule out every treat!

I feel it just becomes more and more work to stay slim but Im optimistic that science can reboot my metabolism. As well as michael mosely ive been looking at eric berg clips about fixing yr metabolism. I love to put my faith in science. Im very disciplined if I have some 'formula' to put my faith in.

pagan I can post the depressing science explaining why the menopause - and you may have entered perimeno - reduces your TDEE.
So, although TDEE reduces with age, the reduction accelerates with these hormonal changes.

That means you have to consume less - especially "treat" food & drink - to maintain weight / bodyfat
and / or increase TDEE boosting exercise.

Adding short intense HIIT bursts - cardio or bodyweight resistance - seem the most effective exercise boost at this life stage

And as I posted, only use the TDEE calculator to allow for exercise - so ignore the flattering murmurs of the various gadgets & machines that claim calories burned.

Also remember that TDEE is for an average population, but that the real TDEE of an individual may be lower due to:
. chronic conditions like PCOS, thyroid, reduced efficiency of liver
. prescription mess, especially certain ADs or steroids
. hormonal changes, included caused by hormonal contraception
. changed gut flora due to previous years of treat foods
. yo-yo dieting
. adaptive thermogenesis having previously been a much higher weight for some years reduces TDEE for maybe a few years, e.g. by 12-15% if you are now over 50lb lighter.
This is a MAJOR reason for regain, or struggles to maintain after a big loss

Yes it is so depressing. Im not stupid enough to believe the calorie recommendation of 1800 pd for women!
Those calculators take age and sex in to account. My fitness pal tells me 1'200 pd to lose weight and I was doing this calc for 'feast' days. (1200 x 7 ) - 1000 ÷ 5 = 1480.
Maybe that's too much for a feast day even with two fast days pw?

I am cycling everywhere and walking a lot but havent worked out for a while

My weight never really changes though! Id say for the last 14 years it's been between 9'6 and 8'12 but usually hovers at 9

Many women believe the 2000 daily calories for women, since this is what one sees on every package.
Of course that is a population average, which takes no account of height, age, activity level.
Individual women would gain or lose on that.

I'm 5'3" but even in my 40s, 2400 cals worked as my daily maintenance. In my 20s, I ate probably 3000 cals (but never counted !)

pagan Your weight is reasonably stable, but if you are like most of us, that is getting more difficult with the years, as tdee falls
Do use TDEE Calc (from Mosely's site) to check your Fitness Pal calculation.
TDEE, calculated at one exercise level lower than your think, is roughly the aim on NFDs

Hello everyone, I'm finally a little less stressed. My NFDs weren't brilliant food wise but I did fast twice and have exercised so hoping to have not done too much damage.

Just back from session 3 with my physio re core; diastesis getting smaller and pelvic floor improving so feeling positive. She still doesn't want me to up my running speed or distance but says in a few weeks should be ok to. Had a slow 3 mile plod this morning (11-12min miles). Spin followed by Pilates tomorrow. Have family staying so will probably fast Tuesday and Thursday next week- although am working next weekend so could possibly do wed/sat instead.

Thanks, that calculator tells me this
Your BMI is: 23.6
Your BMR is: 4767 kJ / 1139 calories
Your TDEE is: 6555 kJ / 1567 calories (I chose lightly active )

So Myfitnesspal giving me a suggestion of 1200 per day I should be losing weight but I wasn't so I began to to 5;2
I'm basically on two diets!

Even on Feast days I"m using mfp but because of fast days if I go over 1200 I don't panic, but I'd never go over it MUCH. I don't think I have eaten as many cals in one day as 1600 more than three times all summer!

But I am on a feast day today and I am having a low GL breakfast in a narrow window. Even on a FD I'm trying to eat in a narrow window.

I should be so thin!!!!

But ignore my venting folks. I'm old with a sluggish metabolism. I haven't been following the low GL diet long enough to lose faith in it YET> I still have hope. This time next week I"ll have seen that needle dip below nine.

I'll shuddup now. I just gotta keep trying new science. Find what works.

Pagan I'm overweight and wouldn't lose weight at anything over 1500. And exercise doesn't do much for my weight, but is great for general well being.

I haven't eaten yet today, wondering if I could do another fast day today just to speed things up.................... Might do. Getting impatient!

I'm with echo on the exercise. Doesn't do much in terms of creating the needed calorie deficit for weight loss, but boy does it lift the mood!

I'm steadily losing 1-2 lb/week on 1800-1900 NFD's (TDEE 1920) and 700-800 FD's. I'm definitely not close to the menopause-induced metabolic slow down as I'm 38 in a family where late menopause is normal, I'm still just over 30 BMI, and I'm 5'7". I think those things contribute much more to my current success at those calorie limits than the fact I swim 4-6 km/week and cycle to work daily. I suspect that were I 58 I'd be finding this a lot more challenging. All the more reason to get my weight healthy now!

Stepped on scales today and still 9 stone after yet another week of being so disciplined.

So, I have decided to fast today as well. So my third fast day this week 4:3

Next week, 5:2 will be enough. I can't do 4:3 continuously... but after finding Thursday very hard I feel fine today. Not hungry at all so I can put off eating for another hour and a half easily and tick off one more fast today. Feast day tomorrow. Fast Monday.

Pagan You are already well within healthy BMI; so if you have a fair bit of muscle form exercise, then you probably don't have much bodyfat to lose.
Hence, you will probably lose more slowly than other folk

NFDs are usually the issue with slower loss than expected. So I recommend examining them closely first
From your stats, I suggest aiming for 1500 on NFDs

If you keep within NHs alcohol guidelines and are sensible about sugary treats - one sensible portion and not every NFD - then you should lose, at the rate of your individual bod.

Also, watch portion size for your starchy carb portions - I suggest keeping within 100g cooked weight for all starches per meal, which is much less than most folk think
A baguette is probably far too big and will spike insulin - aim for equiv of 1-2 slices (wholegrain) bread

• Don't mix diets - 1200 cals on NFDs is too low for most folk and can lead to bingeing.
• Binges definitely sabotage weight loss if they are more than occasional. A policy of "anything goes" each weekend, or even on one day a week, may mean you are eating / drinking back nearly all the FD weekly deficit.

You have only a 2000 weekly calories deficit instead of 3000, so theoretically that would be a ⅔ / 0.7 lb weekly loss, provided you don't eat back any of the deficit.