5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Sending Echo - keep at it, you're doing great.

Welcome to the newbies

Welcome, pagan
If you are already within healthy BMI, then your weight loss may indeed be slower than most folk
You are a few years older now, so changed hormones, meds etc may have slightly reduced your TDEE compared to before, as well as changed eating / drinking / exercise habits

Best tip: NO snacking between meals, ever
Also, do keep within NHS alcohol guidelines.

If you are above healthy BMI, then you need to look at your NFDs - these are supposed to be "maintenance" days but you are probably eating back the FD deficit.

Many folk lose on 5:2 without changing NFD habits, but for some their "normal" eating is too much for their bod.
I recommend you do a TDEE Calc (exercisers set activity level to one below what you think)
This is roughly the amount to average on NFDs.
Then mfp for a full week, for a reality check.

You may find - like many others before you ! - that you need to address portion size, or just reduce the number of treats / alcoholic drinks / calorie bombs.

Welcome, gust and good luck on your 1st FD
You're exactly right to divide up your goal into smaller milestones; also celebrate stone markers and dropping a BMI class.
Celebrate any NSV, like getting into fav clothes, feeling fitter or receiving unsolicited compliments

Sorry to hear you are unhappy.
Absolutely concentrate on yourself, getting the shape you want, then - if budget allows - investing in a few outfits that really make you feel good.

In the meantime, you need TLC and pampering:
try to eat nutritious food, drink plenty of water and plan to get plenty of sleep

Daily walks and gradually boosting exercise can help your mood, as well as tighten up the bod.
Also, budget allowing, treat yourself to a new hair style, or new nail colour

Thanks :-)
456 cals today in a 4 hour window.
Tenth peppermint tea on the go!
Ive been watching a lot of IF info on youtube to stay motivated. Feeling thin even though my weight the same!!!

Well done on a very good FD, pagan

It is common to every diet that weight loss is slower the 2nd and successive times - a mixture of reasons:

• Changes to hormonal balance caused by having new meds, or hormonal contraception, or of course having had a baby, or entering pre-meno or meno.
• If 5 -10 years you could easily keep within Happy Weight, but not as easily now - that's natural: TDEE falls with age unless you increase exercise
• Many people tend to eat a little more over the years as their new "normal" habits - say have an extra treat, biscuit, latte, cream, glass of wine etc.
• They are sometimes busier, so less time for exercise
• They learned the first time how to stretch the diet limits occasionally, but that stretching has become more the norm in later attempts
• In successive rounds of dieting, they get a bit fed up of having to watch what they eat again and compensate with being more indulgent

Everyone: once you reach goal, stick to a definite maintenance plan.
It can be simply weekly weighing and then resuming 5:2 whenever you are say 4lb+ above Happy Weight on 2 successive weeks, or gain 1" around the waist

• much less hassle to deal with any regain quickly, rather than leaving it to accumulate.

Thanks for pep talk BigchocFrenzy.

I am possibly perimeno, wouldn't surprise me, my periods are now every five weeks or every 24 days. Never ever 28.

I have to admit that some of my so-called fast days over the summer were more like 700. And then I was doing 800 three times a week, so I was ignoring the science So really I can't complain until I've been following it all to the letter strictly again.
I know I wasn't being as strict as I can be. I was militant today and I will be on Thursday too.

I find my fitness pal handy and according to that, it advises 1200 cals per day (excluding cals earned from exercise). So I multiplied that by 7, then subtracted 1000 for the two fast days and then divided the remainder by five to give me 1480 on feast days. I reckon I eat less than that on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and at the weekend, perhaps a little over it. So I feel like I'm doubling up there!

Yes, when I reach my goal weight I must continue to do this once a week.

Pagan calories calculated for exercise are often overestimated.
This can mean that exercise actually hinders weight loss, because people eat back too many exercise calories.

It is much better NOT to try estimating exercise cals and NOT to believe gadgets, machines etc

I recommend following Mosely's advice:
allow for exercise by aiming to average TDEE on NFDs, where TDEE is calculated at one activity level below calculate TDEE

Mosely says NEVER eat back exercise cals on FDs

• regardless of how much you exercise, the FD intake remains the same

oops typo
allow for exercise by aiming to average TDEE on NFDs, where TDEE is calculated at one activity level below what you think

Well came in at 530 cals, went spinning + 16k steps so overall today went better than expected. Having visitors again this weekend so fasting Wednesday again.

I saw a 13!! 13 st 13.9 Hope my progress comparison photo loads. Still have that weird sun for a head thing though...

Well done M!! Amazing change in such a short time!!

Great work M - you can definitely see a difference. Into the 12's next!!

That's a good FD, Edit You're back in the fasting swing.

Woohoo, welcome to the 13 somethings, Mship A very motivating SV, shape NSV too.

Thank you BigChoc such good advice. What a lovely welcome.

Can't say it was easy. I had 567 calories so I am chuffed to bits. I so very nearly overate in the evening. I am so disciplined during the day - I fall apart in the evening. Had a chamomile tea instead of snacking before my dinner. I feel like a champion! Ha!

I have got loads of catching up to do on this thread.

We went away for a last minute holiday only in this country.

Eating wise I've been awful as you can imagine eating out each day and I've managed to gain 6lb.

I haven't fasted for a week so starting off with a FD today and back on the wagon.

Echo sorry to hear about your stresses. Hope you can manage to look after yourself, it's so hard when life starts to go off kilter

Hello Pagan and gust, you are most welcome! I've just returned to the board myself, still got a large amount to lose (approx 60lbs!). I got disheartened last year because I wasn't losing as fast as I thought as I should so gave up and then put most of my weight loss back on. So this time I am looking at the longer term and focusing on becoming more healthy as opposed to thinner.

MShip you have a disappearing rear, great job! And well done in joining the 13 club - woo!

Quacking it's my first FD for over a week too! Hope yours is going ok. Got a M&S tikka prawn and calamari thing for lunch (only 106 cals) and mushroom scrambled eggs for tea later. My clubbercise class starts back tonight too from it's summer break so looking forward to that as well.

jingscrivvens thank you :-) and, yes it always helps me to be reminded again of the health benefits. I was getting P'd off seeing the needle on the scale stuck but I do really want the health benefits too.

oh yes, totally agree BIgChocFrenzy Even when I was just doing myfitnesspal with no fast days, I never ate back exercise calories because I see exercise as just to tone up and stay fit. I've never (luckily) believed in its power to make me 'slim'. Ha, no. That's all food. Some say 80/20 food exercise but i know my body and I think it's more like 90/10. I was mad in to exercising for years and I'm on a slight break atm, apart from cycling and walking. I will get back in to it. I would like to try a sean vigue conditioning power yoga session on my next fast day. I'll be at home. Even if I feel dizzy, which I probably won't, I'll only collapse as far as the mat beneath me! But I do suffer from that ingrained fear of exercising when I haven't eaten much. I need to do this work out at the end of my next fast. I should have done it this morning. Damn.

Mship the difference is clear - you must be so chuffed. I survived FD no 2 and will probably do Mon and Thu as they're my busier days at work. I'm trying to be restrained today on my NFD in spite of the lovely sourdough sitting on my kitchen bench. I had 2 slices with an egg this morning but managed to stop myself eating more and I'm not snacking. It's made me realise how much I do snack even though I consider myself a healthy eater eg lots of fruit. It's that constantly having food that I grew up with and it's hard to undo that mindset.

Well done on a good 1st FD, Gust

Don't worry, duck You can't put on 6lb fat in such a short vacation; it'll be undigested food and retained water due to the extra carbs.
A good poop and a couple of FDs would probably get rid of most of it in a week.

Jing Remember how long it took you to put on the weight - probably not all in a couple of months.
Relax, focus on your WOL and training yourself in healthy habits for the longterm
A gradual loss accumulates over the months and then you look back, amazed at what you have achieved.

That's good insight, Lady
Stopping the snack habit and just eating meals is a major step towards weight loss and longterm maintenance.

Snacks - even "healthier" ones - keep insulin raised throughout the day, hinder fat-burning, increase hunger and also the total amount of food consumed.
Have fruit, or a treat / alcohol if you want it as part of an NFD meal.

Here again are Dr Jason Fung's 24-hour graphs of how we mostly lived for umpteen generations - fasting dominated - vs with snacking - insulin dominant

yes, amazing how advertising really brain washed us in to thinking that we need to snack.

My mum worries about me fasting. She still thinks you need five to six small meals a day! but that advice would be specific to diabetes patients I think.

I always found it hard to have ''a small meal'' Feast / Famine is way more instinctive definitely.

Late shifts this week so eating period for me is 1pm - 11pm. To be honest I probably have a last mini meal about 10pm but depends on breaks etc
Still TOTM and 15st 1. I want to get under 15!

Fast day here. I have had a busy morning but am stuck at home now with the kids waiting for deliveries. I am tired and DD is going through a fucking hideous nightmareish challenging phase. The cupboard has biscuits and coke from the many weekend visitors coming. I won't crack, I need to lose weight, but my whole body is begging for energy. This is hard.

Hope you managed to power on through Ouch - a strong cup of tea / coffee often helps me in those situations. I find fasting with the kids around fine if we're busy and out doing jobs, but an absolute nightmare if we're just killing time until bed / DH arrives home.

FD for me today and I'm looking forward to a small portion of lasagna and big side salad for dinner. Had a couple of coffees with splash of milk today, but nothing else yet. I definitely find that eating a small lunch makes a FD so much more difficult - I do much better not eating until dinner time. It's true what Mosley says in the Horizon documentary - hunger for me comes and goes in waves and doesn't really intensify to become unbearable. Really interesting as if you'd asked me before starting this journey I never would've thought a nearly 24 hour Fast two days a week would've been possible or bearable!! I've learned that hunger isn't really anything to be scared of when you have the bigger goals / WOL benefits in mind.