5:2 Thread number 69: All that's banned on our WOL are blame, shame & guilt. Come join us for friendly support & advice

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on nailing a tough FD, Fire and on your SVa

That's good you've reduced the weigh-ins, duck and also that you are exercising
Avoid working the same body parts on consecutive days; your muscles need a recovery day between - this is when they strengthen: on the recovery day, the micro tears in the muscles are rebuilt, to be stronger than before.

Welcome back, emily
A good initial loss, then gaining and losing the same 2-3 lb ?
You may be eating back the FD deficit on the NFDs - maybe since you last did this WOE, you have become used to eating / drinking more calories than before.

Cutting out snacks and eating meals instead is a good start,
but I recommend just for 1 week that you mfp, to check you have a decent weekly deficit

Average calories for NFD as v rough guide: TDEE Calc - if you exercise, Mosely recommends setting activity level to one less than you think (most folk over estimate) .
Otherwise, set to sedentary.

If you lust after sweet things, then cutting right down on sugar is good. It also helps to go lower GI:

Try not to eat more than 2 portions of fruit daily and never eat it on its own, only as part of a meal.
Mosely suggests berries, apples, pears rather than dried fruit or tropical - mango, pineapple (high sugar).

Try cutting out fruit juice (veg juice is fine) and sugary breakfast cereals

Also, check your portion size for starchy carbs: try to keep within about 100g cooked weight per meal (or 1-2 medium / thin slices bread)
Wholegrain / lower GI starches may help: sweet potato, oats, quinoa, bulgur wheat
Avoid deep-fried food or mash - high GI

Welcome emily! Hopefully the fast days went well all round.

Quacking I find with exercise that the first few sessions after a break are awful, but then it gets addictive. I love to exercise now; am away next week and anxious about missing it! If I stop for any reason I hate it again for a few weeks. I suggest tracking your progress somehow- seeing improvements will really spur you on. I like tracking my resting heart rate (love my Fitbit!).

I did a light jog on treadmill for about 20mins today and had no pain. Then did some weights for 20mins. Feeling lovely and warm since lunchtime! Calories in will only be around 1200 I think, so may have done Greek yoghurt and fruit for dessert

Quick question! I'm doing some 14:10 and 16:8 fasting as well as calorie counting at the minute
Anyway with just calorie counting I'm down 22lbs. Worked out my TDEE and BMR. BMR is 1756, but I don't lose weight on that. I track everything via MFP, and am sticking around 1400 cals a day which is what I lose weight on
Is it bad to be eating under what is meant to be my BMR?

1st FD done and in at 466 going by mfp. Gonna have an early night and stay out of the kitchen. Next FD is planned for Friday. I used to always do Mondays and Thursday and I like that but we had a bank holiday in Ireland yesterday so I'll be reverting back to those days from next week. I like routine.

MShip my dd is stubborn like her mother so I was dreading it, thought it'd be a battle of wills but she has played a blinder so far thank the Lord.

Well done on your SV, Ollivander Your daily 14:10 / 16:8 clearly works for you

Since you don't do FDs, your weight loss needs to comes from a daily calorie deficit
Your BMR is pretty high, suggesting you have a fair bit to lose and plenty of bodyfat for fuel.

Hence at least for 2-3 months you should be fine, provided most of those 1400 cals are nutritious food, not junk:
Mosely's BSD - which was based on Newcastle Uni Hospital protocol for reversing pre / T2 is
8 weeks low carb at daily 800 cals - even for v large people with v high TDEE - and some people continue for longer.

Warning to those already within healthy BMI:
I recommend you do NOT go below BMR except on FDs.
Exception is if you do the BSD to help T2/preT2 issues - in which case do it properly with Mosely's low carb Mediterranean diet and no longer than the 8 weeks.

My suggestions:

• For sustainability, I recommend you calculate the BMR of your weight at say BMI 22 and don't go below that (except very occasionally if you aren't hungry)

• On 1 day per week eat your calculated TDEE (if you exercise, calculate at 1 activity level less than you think) to keep BMR & TDEE as high as possible - they will automatically decrease anyway with weight loss.

• Try to limit alcohol + "junk" to 10% of your calorie intake - e.g. limit alcohol + cake, biscuits, sweets, pizza, crisps, deepfried food etc
  This is to ensure you have sufficient nutrients and few "anti-nutrients"

• After each 8 week period like this, have 2 weeks maintenance or v. slow loss - say at least 1800 calls daily - to let your body relax and consolidate its loss.

Thanks, that's helpful. I don't eat any junk at all TBH as I can't manage it within my cals
I take a multi vit, omega 3 and greens every day as back up
Exercise probably 4-5 times a week, weights and riding my horse. I had spinal surgery in May so it's a lot of rehab work

Posted too soon! Am aiming for BMI 25 which sounds high but - I'm broad shoulders, big frame (5ft 10) and lift a lot. So 2st 3lbs left to go at the moment

Can someone please talk some sense into me. I'm being absolutely ridiculous and I know it. I'm sitting here beating myself up for finishing today's FD on 555 kcal. So 10ish % over a 'normal' FD limit.

I went out for coffee with a friend this afternoon and she mistakenly ordered me a cappuccino rather than a 'normal' coffee and that's what has pushed me over. I obviously drank it rather than be that person but I'm actually gutted it has taken me over!! Which I know is absolutely ridiculous as I never eat up to my full TDEE on NFDs and my last few FDs I've come in at under 500 kcals, so I've certainly got 55 kcals "give way" in my total weekly intake. Yet here I am feeling like a failure.

Someone give me a good shake...

< shakes bug until her eyes pop out >
You have nailed your FD. You did well

Many folk allow themselves a 10% cushion if necessary, to help on tougher FDs

55 calories mean bugger all ! Especially as a % of the weekly deficit of 1000s of calories
Look at the macrocosm, not the microcosm.
Weight loss is what happens over the weeks

Thanks BCF (as I pop my eyes back in ) I needed that.

I'm my own worst enemy at times - complete control freak and far too competitive. Hmph.

Tomorrow is a new day...

Bug you're doing brilliantly. I managed my FD at 600 kcal yesterday and it was tough at the end of the day!

I was rewarded this morning with my first SV in a couple of weeks. 14st 2.8 and I comfortably fit my new size 18 jeans with my belt in another notch. Woo

MShip that's great - congratulations on both your SV and NSV! I love it when clothes fit better, it's such a confidence boost

Well done Bug. 555cals is a great FD.

MShip - Great SV & NSV.

Edit - I seem to go through stages of quite a bit of excersize than none. The only time I'm motivated is after a workout. I always think I will do some jogging tomorrow but I struggle to motivate myself the next day to do it.

I'm going to give it a go today tho as much as I HATE IT.

My Friday treat has been purchased and I've told myself I'm only allowed it if I do a hour of exercise today and Friday.

Scales say 15st 3 today, started at 16st 10
NSV - I can pull my work trousers off without undoing them

Ollivander That's fabulous! Trouser NSVs all the way

Tell the uniform suppliers that
I've ordered some new ones a size down so will see how they are

Well done Ollivander! Today my rainjacket zipped up easily instead of catching at my hips which it did before. That's a win I think!

Bug I consider

Well done on your SV and jeans NSV, Mship

Lots of inches NSVs today:
well done too Ollivander with another trousers NSV
and Edit with a jacket NSV

Some SUPERB NSVs today.

I did my c25K podcast and ran in total for 16 mins out of 30. Really pleased as I nearly binned it before the very last 5min run.
I find for me it's a mind over matter thing and I can do it just can't quite get the motivation up. Despite booking a 4K and not being prepared at all, really need to crack on now and stop avoiding it.

Just ordered a new sports bra as i was all over the place. Literally.

Great progress with the running, duck and the 4k is a very sensible distance to enter

You'll appreciate your new bra, very important not to knock yourself out
but seriously it avoids aches where you definitely don't want 'em.

Thursday weigh in and I'm 2.2lbs down.

After looking at some progress pics I've taken over the last 2 months I've decided I want to loose another 4lbs. As it is now coming off my legs and just a couple of lbs has made a lot of difference to the appearance on my legs and the cellulite is starting to shift too.

If I continue to train for the 4K it should be fine. I did one last year, had a year to prepare but didn't do anything until 2 months before. I left it so late I was pretty much training every day. Don't fancy doing that again but I've just checked my weight app and I'm a just 3lbs away from being 4 stone lighter than last time I did one.

I'm aching like crazy today, will take a rest day and a FD.

Well done duck- on the running and on the scales victory. I stupidly stepped on scales a day early and am a half pound up! But I know it's not real gain as my clothes are looser.

I'm fasting today and also a little achy after body balance yesterday, which is surprising as I didn't find it hard at all at the time! Just new moves I think. Haven't decided whether to go to gym at lunchtime or not yet. It's a good distraction if hungry but could probably do with a rest day.

Getting stressed about next week now- have friends visiting this weekend so there will be eating out and eating/drinking in. Then on leave next week, staying with family. Meaning I have no control over food and limited exercise opportunities. And I also don't want to discuss fasting with them as it will then be the only topic of conversation for the whole week....

I might try 16:8, it's fairly easy to skip breakfast at least. Any suggestions?

Well done on your SV, duck

For anyone starting a new exercise program, it helps to alternate restdays with exercise days, or cross training.
Personally, I alternate cardio days (HIIT spin) with lifting / resistance days and have at least one recovery day when I only have a relaxing 20 min walk
I cycle everywhere (I'm only 4km stretches from anywhere) so that gives short daily low intensity exercise

Edit I suggest you aim for a healthy maintenance week:

• 16:8 / 14:10 and skipping breakfast sounds fine - have a big drink if water, plus black coffees / espresso / herbal tea

• Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines every day. Drink lots of water

• No snacking ever, just eat the meals

• No need to talk about fasting; if anyone is rude enough to question your moderate intake, just say you are trying to make your lifestyle healthier

Edit - in your shoes I would definitely do 16:8. Breakfast you could use "I'm not a breakfast person" that should work.

I'm like you, I would now never discuss fasting as people are uneducated and see it as "she's starving herself" it's just not worth the hassle.

I personally dodge the treats I get offered by saying no thanks Ive cut sugar out of my diet. I also do the same with alcohol. Or you could just say I'm watching what I eat.

What is body balance?

Ignore that half a pound, that will be gone by tomorrow. If clothes are feeling looser it's definitely working.

Haha they all know I'm a breakfast person! Although they get up late so I'll just let them assume I ate earlier! I don't drink much (seldom actually) but now that DD is 3.5 I'm conscious that everyone is expecting announcements of a second pregnancy and don't want to give people a reason to gossip (I'm very keen to lose this weight before another pregnancy).

Body balance is a yoga/Pilates based stretching class. I really enjoyed it even though I generally prefer to get sweaty in the gym!