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Fasting / 5:2 diet

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2017 22:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat.
Just be patient & you'll break through.
However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight.
Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)


Useful MN Threads
================

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile
OP posts:
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EvenFlo2 · 28/05/2017 13:06

I know, I will stop now. Was just nice to see the efforts of the FD....

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MazDazzle · 28/05/2017 13:52

And if you only weigh yourself after every second FD, you will see the efforts of your FD. You could even try weighing yourself once a fortnight.

I only 'record' my weight officially when I have a new low, and completely ignore the fluctuations.

I usually lose half a pound a week and if I don't fast for a month or even two, a few FD will get me back to where I was. FD doesn't have the same dramatic drops, but nor does it have the huge gains either.

The benefits of fasting are so impressive, that for me fasting is for life, no matter what I weigh.

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calzone · 28/05/2017 14:27

I'm fasting today ready for weigh in tomorrow.

Just had coffee and water so far.

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quckingduck22 · 28/05/2017 16:34

EvenFlo- don't get disheartened stick with it and it will come off.

You sound like me, healthy upper bmi but feel uncomfortable in clothes.

I'm the same as Maz I do weigh daily but only record the losses. I'm in a pattern now where each fast day I loose 2lbs but then obviously gain then get another 2 off the next fast day. I tried too cheat one week and snuck a extra FD in and I had no loss.

It was only a couple of weeks ago I managed to gain 6lbs in one weekend, I was gutted but it was a kick up the backside to keep pushing on and it's worked. That 6lb came off within the week and I'm getting good losses now I have cut out all treats and been very good with food choices and logging everything on MFP.

My mini target is rapidly approaching, don't think I will make it but I'm going to give it my all.

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EvenFlo2 · 28/05/2017 17:32

And the general consensus is to eat as close to tdee on NFD's?

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2017 20:14

EvenFlo Yes, TDEE is what Mosely meant by "normal eating" on NFDs
You don't have to hit TDEE every day; most of us are a bit over at weekends and a bit under on weekdays

With your very low TDEE of 1400, it's not sustainable to try to eat below this every day - that usually leads to bingeing and unhealthy choices.
In your particular case, I'd recommend not going below 1200 on NFDs.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2017 20:23

Chill...
When you have a binge, it can looks like you've gained a kg overnight, or 2-3 kg at the weekend.

However, most of the gain you see the next day on the scales, or bloating, is NOT extra bodyfat. It is mostly a combination of

  • undigested food
  • retained water due to excess carbs

    You should find most of it goes after the next FD

    A weight loss graph almost always has a few blips, in addition to the usual 5:2 zig-zag because of the FDs / NFDs

    Some people find daily weighing helps, but NOT when it means you obsess over every blip.
    those who get demotivated by scale blips:
    I suggest weighing every 2 or 4 weeks say, the morning after FD2.
OP posts:
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MazDazzle · 28/05/2017 21:10

Today turned out to be a FD. Skipped breakfast, as I usually do on NFD, but wasn't hungry at lunch time. DH was hungover and my 2 eldest kids were out of sorts, so food wasn't really on the agenda. Whilst they were all sofa ridden I went for a quick run. I am not a runner. Managed to run 3K though, which is a start. I can only get better!

Made fajitas for dinner and swapped the wraps for cauliflower rice and the sour cream for yogurt.

The kids perked up, so I took them a walk round the village for some fresh air before bed.

Really pleased with myself for managing a weekend FD. I'm going away Wed/Thur so will make Tues my second FD.

How did your FD go Calzone?

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2017 22:22

Well done on an active weekend FD, Maz

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BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2017 22:23

I hope your Sunday FD also went well, calzone

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calzone · 28/05/2017 23:02

Yes thanks.
Really well.

Had chicken and couscous and salad for dinner.

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Daytona79 · 29/05/2017 07:05

First fast day today for me I've made a big pot of veggie soup how much calories is in it do you think..??

How many bowls could I have.

Thanks alot

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EvenFlo2 · 29/05/2017 07:32

Good luck to any bank hol fasters!

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2017 11:04

Good luck on your 1st FD, Daytona
Cals for homemade dishes can vary enormously, depending on content.
For future ref:You need to weigh and mfp the ingredients before you start, to get the total, then divide into the portion / calorie size you want.

For now:
Commercial veg soups are about 450ml per tin, which is normally 2 portions. As a WAG (wild-added guess !) I'd say 500 ml of your soup might be 250 cals, but I could be wildly wrong if you were added cream / oil.

OP posts:
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MazDazzle · 29/05/2017 11:42

Started the day with a 30 min. Core Class, then out for a run. Managed 4.5 K. I'll aim for 5 next time. Can't believe the improvement in only a week.

It feels so luxurious having a NFD on a Monday!

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SingingGoldfinch · 29/05/2017 13:47

Hi everyone. I should be on a FD today but I'm being weak - it's bank holiday and I'm on holiday from work this week so feeling relaxed and in holiday mode. I'm planning a FD tomorrow but then we're away so not sure I'll fit another in this week. Am I best to try and fit one in or just write the whole week off and get back on it next Monday? Don't want to lose momentum, but want a nice relaxed family week off too.

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/05/2017 17:07

Goldfinch Don't worry about another FD this week; 5:2 is very flexible - just pause it.
Enjoy your family week and have your next FD next Monday.

The only habits I really recommend people keep on vacation:

  • Stay within nhs alcohol limits
  • No snacking - enjoy your meals instead.
OP posts:
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SingingGoldfinch · 29/05/2017 17:50

Thanks BigChoc. I'm sticking by the rules you suggest so hopefully it won't be too big a set back to have a week off (or to only do the FD this week). This is definitely one of the benefits of this WOE - easy to pause and easy to pick up again. Plus, I gave absolutely no doubt that I will be straight back on it next Monday!

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GrannyGrown · 29/05/2017 22:54

Wasn't sure whether I'd do Bank Holiday FD today or not, especially after waking up hungry following an over-indulgent weekend when eating TDEE went out of the window. Mood took a nose-dive when I got on the scales - weight on (which I am ignoring) - but improved when tape measure showed another cm lost from the waist.

Realised late afternoon that I hadn't eaten and was no longer feeling hungry, so FD decision was made for me. Maybe brain has accepted FDs as normal now?

Went out for a run around 8.00 p.m. - overcast but very humid. Decided during my run it would be nice to make my evening soup into a chowder by adding sweetcorn and stirring in a beaten egg. Unfortunately, it ended up looking rather like vomit - just as well I'm not too squeamish! Topped up the calories with avocado to bring it in at 495.

Hope everyone had a good weekend and avoided getting caught up in the Bank Holiday downpours.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 11:19

Well done on your active Bank Hol FD, Granny

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MrsMooks · 30/05/2017 12:39

Got back from my weekend away yesterday and back into a FD for me today. I have not weighed myself!

After my 3rd accidental FD last Thursday I had lost 5lb by Friday morning! Not bad for a first week.

It was a very active weekend so I am hoping the damage is limited.

I may have to do back to back FD's this week so tomorrow too as I am also socialising on Thursday this week - is this ok? I am expecting it to be hard but losing the 5lb last week has spurred me on!

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 13:20

Well done on your SV and a good 1st week, MrsMooks

Most folk - even experienced fasters & maintainers like me, tip, b&w - find b2b (back 2 back) FDs too tough.
If you are fasting tomorrow and socializing Thursday, then I recommend you move the 2nd FD to Friday - that will also get rid of any Thursday bloat right away, before the weekend

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/05/2017 13:21

Oops sorry, FD today, then FD2 on Friday

OP posts:
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rocket74 · 30/05/2017 15:34

FD today. All ok so far - I've got 300 cals left for my Asda cod in tikka sauce later!
Last week threw me a bit - I did a sneaky weigh on the Tuesday and it all looked v.good - but by Friday I was 4lb up again despite a FD on the Thursday.
It's a busy week this week with half term and birthday parties but aiming for another FD on Thursday - or at least a mini one if not possible.

Good luck to all

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calzone · 30/05/2017 15:52

NFD yesterday and today.

Went over my calories yesterday and I'm reining that in with proper calorie counting today.

Going to fast tomorrow.

NSV is that I'm wearing slim fit size 12 jeans and they are comfortable!

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