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Fasting / 5:2 diet

5:2 Thread number 68: You don't have to be in control to start, but you can start to be in control. You can do this. Go for it !

974 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 19/05/2017 22:27

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat.
Just be patient & you'll break through.
However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.
This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight.
Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)


Useful MN Threads
================

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

Recipe Thread has many FD recipes. Post your own too.

Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile
OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 21:22

Welcome, ouch Smile
If you are still EBF, you should start with 1000 cals on FDs, instead of the usual 500
Once you are used to that, you can optionally go down to 700.

Welcome, MrsMooks Smile
If you weigh weekly, then best is first thing in the morning after the 2nd FD, naked, after the loo, but before eating or drinking anything.

5:2 weight loss tends to be a zig-zag line, with your stomach emptying after FDs and refilling on NFDs. However, the trend over the weeks should be downwards - if you have a weekly calorie deficit

Those who don't lose on 5:2, have almost always got into the longterm habit of eating much more than their body can burn.
So on their "normal eating" NFDs, which should be "maintenance days", they are eating back the FD deficit.

I suggest you review progress after 2 weeks and if you are not losing, then mfp for one full week, for a reality check on NFD portion size and "treats".

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 21:35

Well done on your SV, Granny and your waist NSV
You stayed on track and your patience has been rewarded Smile

Goldfinch If you still feel hungry, then eat up to your 500, but if you aren't bothered then 380 is ok.
Weight tends to fluctuate, particularly due to hormonal swings and water retention. So you need to look at the trend over 2-3 weeks rather than day to day.

A very indulgent weekend could cancel out the deficit from the previous 2 FDs, especially if your TDEE is lowish.
However, bloat is usually mainly undigested food plus retained water from the excess carbs. So, tomorrow morning you may see that the FD has got rid of that.

Well done for cutting down all that sugary milk, Flo
Have you tried your tea without ?

Or rooibos tea, which is naturally a little sweet.
I enjoy green / herbal tea - ginger & lemon / mint / aniseed & fenchel - with a pinch of stevia powder to sweeten
Also, unsweetened almond milk is a very low cal alternative to dairy milk, under 5 cals for a 25 ml slug.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 21:36

Wow, that's a long swim, Rocket and a tasty healthy menu

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OuchBollocks · 22/05/2017 21:37

Thanks BigChocFrenzy. Due to how the day worked out I ended up having around 850, but I feel ok on it this time anyway. Do you know if I should add breastfeeding calories to my non-fast day intake? My TDEE was between 1990 and 2200 depending on whether I picked sedentary or light activity, but there was nothing about breastfeeding there.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 21:58

Well done KitKat It's fine to ease your way in.
Most important thing is, you've taken the first step

Duck Your choice about protein shakes.
Most people get enough protein from food, even on FDs.
However, if you are lifting heavy weights and want to build muscle, or can't wait until your next meal, then you may find them useful - in moderation.

Women don't really benefit from more than 20g protein per shake - the 30g+ portions are more suited to male bodybuilders.

Definitely avoid shakes with sugar, or with more than 3g carbs per portion - male lifters sometimes want to bulk up with a protein & carb mix, but they may have a TDEE of 4000+ and bodyfat 10%. You don't.

If you have a tub of protein powder, then you can make your own.
You can always mix in some berries, on NFDs a tbsp oats, but no added sugar or honey etc.
Top brands e.g. Weider, Scitec Nutrition cost a bit more, but basically any 80-100% protein brand without added sugar should be ok.

OP posts:
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SingingGoldfinch · 22/05/2017 21:59

Thanks once again for your advice BCF! I'm hungry but it's manageable so I'll push on through on my 380 calories till tomorrow.
I'm a bit panicked that I might've over-indulged over the weekend and undone all the good work of last week's FDs - but I didn't go OTT and didn't eat or drink more than I would on any normal weekend so I'm hoping that's not the case. Have to say, the appeal of this WOE is that you can supposedly eat 'normally' on NFDs but I might fall out of love with it if my weight loss yo-yos noticeably when I do just that and that calorie counting on NFDs is the only route to success.

My TDEE is 1951 so quite healthy. I may have gone over this on Saturday but was under every other day. I have also done 30 day shred workouts all but one day for past week so feeling a bit disappointed not to be feeling the benefits of all this more. Fingers crossed I wake up feeling less bloated and more positive tomorrow!

Hang in there everyone!!

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 22:01

Ouch The BF allowance is just on the FDs
On NFDs you should aim for around TDEE, like everyone else.
Most folk don't need to count cals on NFDs, though. So, maybe just try eating sensibly unless you think you would normally exceed 2000-2200.

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 22:07

Goldfinch With a TDEE around 2000, you should have enough wiggle room not to worry about weekends, if you are sensible on weekday NFDs.

No need to count on NFDs unless your "normal eating" is well above TDEE.
If it is, you need to retrain your habits, because whatever diet you use to lose - 5:2 or any other - you wouldn't be able to maintain that loss is you eat significantly more than you burn.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 22:14

Exercise is essential for health, but for many people has little effect on weight
Weight loss is at least 80-90% determined by how much you eat and how much junk / booze.

Exercise can help boost loss, or break a plateau, but only if you don't increase your intake by more than the extra cals you burn.

Note: most machines & gadgets give the gross calorie burn, but you need the net cals, because you burn cals just by being awake.
This is why Mosely recommends accounting for exercise via TDEE, instead of eating back the cals theoretically burned for each individual chunk of exercise

OP posts:
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SingingGoldfinch · 22/05/2017 22:23

Thanks again BigChoc. Useful advice. I have been using MFP so I'm clear that, on average, my 'normal' eating isn't over my TDEE. I generally count calories on NFDs during week and then just give myself the weekend off counting and relax a bit more without going crazy. Wine is probably my downfall but I never drink in the week and don't drink excessively.

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pangolinfan · 22/05/2017 22:28

Thanks for that reminder re exercise and weight loss BigChoc. One other benefit I find is a bit of a virtuous circle, because I enjoy exercise more if I'm lighter, and that in turn makes me want to stick to the WOE nothing very virtuous about this weekend though after daughter made brownies. But I did enjoy my spinning class - thanks for inspiring me to give it another go. You are quite right - no one is checking anyone else's work rate!

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Daytona79 · 22/05/2017 22:33

Hi Cani join ive 3 stone to lose and thought I'd try the 5/2

I'm a veggie and I'd read about using Slim fast shakes on fast days does anyone do that..?

on non fast days is around 1400 calories normal .? I don't do a lot of exercise just a average 10,000 steps a day.

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Daytona79 · 22/05/2017 22:38

Ok I just just read about tdee and used calculator and mine is 1900 so I will eat that on nonfast days

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MazDazzle · 22/05/2017 22:56

Hi Daytona and all the other newbies. It's great to see others discovered this way of life! I'd ditch the Slim Fast shakes and instead Sun for 500 cals of nutritious food. Though you could start at 1000 cal FD and work your way down.

A very indulgent weekend could cancel out the deficit from the previous 2 FDs

^^ This is my worry. Weigh day for me tomorrow after a big weekend. Hopefully I've maintained and not gained!

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MazDazzle · 22/05/2017 22:58

discovering
and swap, not Sun 😳

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SingingGoldfinch · 22/05/2017 23:02

Crossing fingers for your weigh in Maz! I'm due to weigh tomorrow too but feeling like I might wimp out!!

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 23:09

Welcome, Daytona Smile
We've seen several vegetarians and vegans doing 5:2 or maintaining. So you're in good company

You could have those shakes on FDs if you find it easier, but you might feel fuller with some protein and lots of veg,
e.g. a cottage cheese salad with walnuts / seeds, or stirfry veg with tofu, or a veggy curry, or bean & butternut stew, with cauliflower rice / a little brown or red rice

OP posts:
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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2017 23:14

CHILL: Scales give a snapshot of your weight, not your moral worth.

Your body is not a machine that loses 1lb every single week
Weight can naturally vary a couple lb from day to day, even when not dieting
Many people lose in fits and starts, with a few blips along the way.
Be patient and you'll get there

It's a WOL not a race

OP posts:
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SingingGoldfinch · 23/05/2017 07:14

Thanks for your words of wisdom BigChoc. You are very right. I was having a bad day yesterday. I'd joined a 5:2 Facebook group which is full of people losing lots and quickly. I know weight loss can be more significant to begin with and that losing more steadily is the most sensible way. Ive left that group now and will stick to getting advice and support on here. Thank you.

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SingingGoldfinch · 23/05/2017 07:17

Welcome Daytona. I'm not a veggie but do eat a lot of veggie food. I've got Elly Pears Feast Day Fast Day book and it's great - full of yummy FD and NFD recipes. I'd thoroughly recommend it.
www.amazon.co.uk/Elly-Pears-Fast-Days-Feast/dp/0008157928?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

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OuchBollocks · 23/05/2017 09:24

Do any of you stick to the exact same meal plan on all your FDs?

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pangolinfan · 23/05/2017 10:05

No Ouch that would drive me crazy and I enjoy thinking about the best way to use the calories I've saved up for the evening. I love food too much to eat the same things all the time.

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SingingGoldfinch · 23/05/2017 10:24

I'm with you Pango - I couldn't eat the exact same thing on all FDs!! There are so many things you can eat!

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MerricatsHouse · 23/05/2017 11:12

Back from holidays on Saturday, been battling jet lag since then so moved my fast day from yesterday to today as I had a weird appetite for a few days. It's going OK today but I am still hungrier than usual. The good news is I only put on 3.5 lbs so I'm hoping when I've got rid of the major bloat from hot weather and jet lag that it might translate to very little / no actual gain.

Have a nice long stretch of time with no interruptions now, so can really focus on 5:2 and making some real losses over time. According to the BMI I need to lose around 3 stones to be in their healthy range, but just going to take it a pound at a time!

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GrannyGrown · 23/05/2017 12:17

Had a good FD yesterday - the evening run wasn't too bad and quicker than last week although admittedly this could have been due to lack of horizontal rain! Had a very filing 3-egg mushroom and onion omelette with my current salad of choice (beetroot, tomato, avocado) - came in at 506 cals of deliciousness.

Ouch - I do tend to be a creature of habit on FD - usually relying on a couple of different soups with added vegetables/protein - I like the not having to plan. Unfortunately neither was available when I tried to stock up over the weekend, hence the omelette yesterday.

Found this morning's exercise class quite tough; followed it with 15 mins of arm exercises using the resistance machines. Continue to be amazed how weak my arms are, so will add to my gym routine. Managed level 5 out of 12, so plenty of scope to monitor improvement.

BigChoc - love this "Scales give a snapshot of your weight, not your moral worth." Still hope the scales are kind to anyone with a weigh-in though!!

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