5:2 Thread No. 65: Zap holiday gain when replacement parts are calling from the fridge ? It even has a light to show you the cold pizza 😈 Let's fast & get lean together 😇

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS
==========

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
=============

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Chokose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian
NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI body variations ripped to normal , Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips
===========

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
  

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
  

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.
Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine.
Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
  

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
  

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)
  

Useful MN Threads
================

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for over 3 years )

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
================================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

[sparkle789]

Hi everyone.
I think I'm going to give 5:2 another try.

I did it a while ago but lost my way a bit.

I'm not sure weather to combine it with 16:8?

[BigChocFrenzy]

Glass I recommend sticking to 5:2 as a regular WOE and keeping 4:3 in reserve in case of a plateau later.

NFDs are "normal eating" and training for maintenance.
So if they are significantly above TDEE, then it is important to get them under control, or you'll probably regain quickly.
Also, as clear and several lthers have found, 4:3 can lead to bingeing, because you are fasting 3 days out of 7, which is too stressful for many folk to be sustainable.

No snacking is really important for fat loss, insulin control and for health.
Snacks keep insulin levels raised all the time, which hinders fat-burning, increases hunger and total daily calories consumed.
Snacks are for those who need to gain weight, or to avoid losing.

I suggest you start with 4 meals per day, to ease your way in.
Any reasonably healthy adult should be able to last 4 hrs between meals.
If you want "treats" or alcohol, only have them as part of a meal.

To help keep within TDEE:

• mfp for at least a week, as a reality check on portion size and treats / calorie bombs.
  
• Cut out snacks, keep to nhs alcohol guidelines & reduce junk / sugary carbs
  
• Reduce GI of your meals:
  . Base meals on protein, masses of veg, sensible portions of complex carbs
  e.g. wholegrain bread, brown / red rice, quinoa keep you full longer than white carbs
  . Wrt potatoes: choose baked or boiled, or sweet pots, rather than mash or deep-fried chips
  . Avoid fruit juice, dried fruit, sugary breakfast cereal
  . Keep fruit to 1-2 portions per day.
  . Watch portion size with pastry, pies, pizza

[TaIkinPeace]

sparkle
Combining 5:2 and 16:8 is really easy.
Back in the mists of time when I joined these threads (at number 3 if I remember) I worked out a couple of plans that seem to work for a lot of people.
THey are as follows

Weekly plan
Monday = 500 calories ~ tea or water for breakfast, as small a lunch as you can cope with, 500 calories of veg and protein for supper.
Tuesday = TDEE less 10% ~ ideally split across two good sized meals
Wednesday = as Tuesday
Thursday = as Monday
Friday = TDEE exactly ~ ideally spread across two good meals
Saturday = yes, well, lets not ask shall we
Sunday = as Friday

Yearly plan
24 weeks a year = fast strictly
24 weeks a year = fast pretty much
4 weeks a year = stuff that I'm on holiday.

FWIW I'm in dire need of some strict fasting but I'll save it till term starts

[glasshalfemp]

Thank you ckearskies99 and wow you ARE AN INSPIRATION. I guess there is no quick fix and avoidance tactics won't curb the cravings. Which are in fact an addiction to sugar. I will just have to bite the bullet and try my hardest on NFD to eat MEALS

[BigChocFrenzy]

Sparkle Many of us combine 16:8 with 5:2, to help nail FDs and keep NFDs sensible.
Probably what I posted for GlassHalf applies to you - no snacking is key for many folk

[glasshalfemp]

Just saw the other posts. All noted with thanks. Will let you know how I get on. I think Monday and Wednesday fast too close together so will do Monday and Thursday.

[EagleRay]

hurrah! FD2 nearly done! Would love to crash in bed now but kids only just asleep so frantically rushing around tidying, washing dishes, sorting laundry, paying bills and trying not to think about food.

Another fritatta day today - In case anyone wants a quick guide (although it's very easy), here's what I do:

3 large eggs in a bowl with a dash of milk, then add any of the following:
frozen peas
mushrooms
tomatoes
tomato puree
grated courgette
feta cheese

or anything else you have in the fridge! I tend to add in 50g amounts to keep it simple, eg 200g courgette, 50g cheese etc, and measure as I go, then add up on MFP. If you go over, then I guess you could keep some aside to eat the following day.

Now that I've reached that half stone landmark, am beginning to feel the difference, although body fat still v high at >40%

Need to look into 16:8 in more depth as a future option for maintaining - I don't want to be this size again or obsessed with 'slimming' in 30 years time like my mother

Hope everyone getting through the week ok - weekend nearly here!

[EagleRay]

PS still not able to do much exercise-wise except walking but yesterday I took the kids to a big park locally which is in a valley, so walked all the way down to the bottom of the hill then all the way back up again, in the heat. Reckon the pushchair and occupants had a combined weight of 30kg and we walked up 200m in height! It was hell on earth at the time but felt afterwards like I'd actually challenged myself a bit. I was laughing to myself as I was doing it as once walked to Everest base camp without really thinking about it (booked the previous week on a whim) and now walking up a hill with a pushchair is such a big deal...

[BigChocFrenzy]

EagleRay I recommend that people who have lost quite a bit of bodyfat go to 6:1 for maintenance, or even stay on 5:2 if they want to eat back more of the deficit at the weekend.

16:8 and no snacking helps, but usually won't be enough on its own to maintain goal weight, unless you learn to regularly eat within goal TDEE.

[Clearskies99]

Thanks glass still a long way to go but now actually believe the changes I'm making can be for life and that I will eventually be lean. Yes, proper meals with gaps in between should really help you. Stick with it, it takes time for body to adjust and psychological aspects of cravings to shift too. Largely avoiding sugar/junk/v fatty foods should really help. About once or twice a month I get a bit of a desire for something really sweet - it is such a relief not to be plagued (tortured even) by near constant sugar cravings any more. Good luck!! and don't give up if you fall off the wagon, just climb straight back on!.... And drink LOTS OF WATER..... And NO SNACKING!

[Clearskies99]

Well done eagle pushchair mountain NSV I reckon!

[sparkle789]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll try the 16:8 alongside 5:2 and see how I get on.

[Clearskies99]

Good luck sparkle| keep posting on here, you'll get lots of good advice, encouragement and support, whether it's all going swimmingly or you hit a tricky patch

[EagleRay]

So since my beach blow-out on Sunday, I've managed to lose 3.5lb - such a massive difference now I'm mostly tracking NFDs and only overdoing things very rarely!

[stripeyzebra32]

Thanks Annie, found the link on BCFs OP and watched the documentary. It's not the one I thought it was, I was confused with a different one but OMG those results were amazing. Makes it all worth while just focusing on that.

Well someone's changed there tune, H was in the room half watching it and doing something else and he was pretty open mouthed at the results too.

He's actually gone in today and is going to recommend this to his friend.

There company has decided to bring in Medicals as H works in a physical job and even tho half the workforce are under 40 many of the younger ones have ailments as to why they can't do half the tasks.
His close friend had his in the week and was told high blood pressure, cholesterol and very high risk of stroke and a few other things all mentioned in the horizon program so he's gone off today now recommending it.

At least now if I do get any stick for doing this he will have my back.


I will say after now doing this for 1 month a cloud has been lifted for me as I was very concerned I was going to pile the weight back on. But after a month monitoring my weight I think I can safely say whilst I have 5:2 in my life I don't have to worry about piling on the lbs. I can enjoy a treat guilt free and not have to constantly worry about what I can eat. It's so flexible and well fabulous!

FD today. Good luck Friday fasters

[BigChocFrenzy]

Good luck and let us know when you have your 1st FD, Sparkle

Congrats on your SV, Eagle
mfp is a revelation for many folk - very useful tool / reality check to get NFDs under control and train you to eat what your body actually needs.
The occasional feast is natural & absolutely ok in this WOL

Congrats on your lifestyle & happy NSVs, Stripey
You now know this WOE gives you the tools to maintain a stable healthy weight longterm, while enjoying a decent social life.
Good to hear your OH has checked out the science and is now on board - changing your opinion after you examine a body of peer-reviewed research is the mark of a good scientist.

[BigChocFrenzy]

You sound like you have found your permanent lean WOL too, clear
I also rarely get sweet cravings now and I just don't want sweet crap - my body deserves better than crap.

Sweet things I enjoy regularly - as part of a meal:
. 90% cocoa Lindt
. Melon & strawberries
. Berries whipped with Philly or Greek yoghurt
. Apple, almond & calvados Tarte Flambé from an award-winning restaurant here
. Homemade 1-minute flax, cinammon, goji & walnut muffin
. Homemade protein ice cream, several flavours

[EagleRay]

Stripey - glad your DP is seeing sense!

My DP's workplace has health issues - the premises is fairly isolated and so they have on site free catering which encourages overeating. DP stuffs his face then has to spend the rest of the day drinking strong coffee to stay awake. I think that's part of his problem when he's at home - he's used to eating vast portions of food for free and so tends to shop for as much as possible, as cheaply as possible.

There's been an astonishing amount of deaths at his workplace - it seems to run at about 1 per year, which is a lot considering it's not that big a place! Not all diet related, but the lifestyle there doesn't help. And the irony is that virtually every single person there has a minimum of a PhD!

[MoveAlongNowPlease]

Hi all, I've been lurking since Xmas.
I was active on the threads for a few months before that and lost 10kg. Then I fell off the NFD control but kept 5,2 ing and managed to keep gain to just 3 kg. Got back on the horse ( and off the grog) a few weeks back and I'm at my lowest weight in15 yrs. 68 kg or 10,10 in old money or thereabouts. At 5,4 I'm only 6 lbs off 'normal' bmi.
Anyway reason for checking in is, had my work medical today and the dr said
A) best blood results he'd seen all day and
B) well done on weight loss since last year and how did you do it
I said 5:2 and he got all excited and said "Perfect!!!"
he does it and so do all his patients and its the only diet that works.
So nice to see a medical professional that gets it. He was in raptures about Michael Moseley too and the 'little book'.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome back, MoveAlong
Congrats on your SV and your grog NSV - you should reach healthy BMI within a few weeks.

Brilliant news about your medical, very motivating for you to know you had the best results of the day
A lot of doctors now, like yours, have started to recognise the health benefits of fasting and even recommend 5:2 to some patients. They've read the research and seen the benefits in their patients.

[stripeyzebra32]

Wow move along how fantastic is that.

Please forgive me if my terminology isn't quite right but even tho my mums been cancer free for 5 years she still sees a doctor / consultant and they are always saying reduce belly fat and advised 5:2 to her. She tried in the past but despite saying in the past how she would eat / drink clean it never happened.

Eagle that's pretty shocking, I wonder if your Hs work is a bit of a mind thing like we all do on all inclusive holidays (it's free so eat / drink it all)
My H work is simular subsided canteen with fat laden meals cheap as chips. He said over the last year the amount of blokes that have put on a lot of weight is unbelievable for such a physical job they need to be fit but I fear the company is getting wise to the fact people can't do the jobs they were hired for.

FD complete, slight wobble in my head but I know now why I'm doing this and feel very content.

Talking of all inclusive hols, im going away in 2 weeks what is the rules for hols? Enjoy and straight back on the wagon the day you get back?

I've not hugely got my appetite back so I'm hoping I can stay away from carbs during breakfast and have some scrambled egg and meat. Salad and nice meat for dinner and have more of a treat for my main meal.

[sparkle789]

First fast day done :) I ate approx 460 calories. I struggled a bit but was at work all day which made it easier. Might get an early night as well so I'm not tempted by the chocolate cake dd1 made!

[Trytowin]

Hi can I join?

I have been doing 16 8 for a week now. I did the 5 2 last year with really good results but fell spectacularly off the wagon!

Last sunday I was 108.8 kg and as of yesterday morning I was 106.5 kg a loss of 2.3kg 😀 super chuffed finding 16 8 easier thinking of breaking out the big guns for the inevitable plateaus. Obsessively logging everything in mfp roughly sticking to 1350.

Dh is joining me this time as he has been given clearance by docs due to his meds. He was always supportive and did modified/ cut back days to coincide but feel better this time. Both finding 16 8 less harsh and seeing as we both fell off together we have a long way to go!

Thanks

[Bestbees]

Hi all,

After getting on really well and getting to 9.8, 1lb away from my target holidays, both school and actual have seen me step on the scales at 10.2 this morning. I really need to sort this out! I was loving the woe so think I should be able to slip back in no problem. Have a big family event in 3 weeks so hoping for 9.10 by then and think the first few pounds should fall off easily as they are mostly carb bloat.

Plan generally is 2x FD, 16:8 on NFD if they don't follow a FD. Paleo eating plus pulses during the week and generally avoiding wheat. Lots of water and green tea and back to running.

Today is FD have had a double espresso followed by a 4K run.

Going to try a post a lot more to help with motivation!

[stripeyzebra32]

Good luck Best and well done for taking charge. It's very easy to bury your head in the sand.

I read somewhere it's easier to loose a few lbs rather than a few stone.

I need to do a bit shop today and start eating better in general as been a bit lapse recently and my skin has gone really bad with spots. I have a load of veg filling up my freezer so going to look at some batch cooking again and getting back into the kitchen and experimenting.