5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome, LadyAnyonella Don't worry if it takes you a while to ease down to 500-cal FDs.
So long as you eat within TDEE on NFDs you should lose well enough.

Well done on your SVs, TopHat, Cheeky, MrD, cjt, mtum
This all adds up week by week.
For those of you who are disappointed at "only" losing 1lb, I'll roll out this pic again of what you've lost:

Congrats on getting i to the 12 stone somethings, TopHat An encouraging milestone

You should see a 13 on the scales next time MrD
That's good you've reminded yourself how far you've come, 51 lb down, another 9lb to win your elephant's willy

Cheeky At your BMI and TDEE that's a good rate of loss.

cjt That's 1lb in the right direction.
Let's just check: What's your BMI and what have you lost in total since starting ?

Those cereal bars are a great marketing gimmick, but often spike hunger soon after you've eaten:
The sugar content is usually high, even if it's just dried fruit and they are not filling for the calories contained.
If the yoghurt is flavoured, that would also increase hunger

You would feel less hungry if you ate proper meals, with protein & veg
Also, are you mfping, to check NFDs are sensible ?

Welcome back, Mimia That's very good you haven't gained much.
Sugary food is only a temporary fix for stress, then your insulin levels crash and you need more sugar, so the cravings spiral and you feel bad.
I suggest you try 2:5ing the sweet crap, i.e. just have it on 2 days per week.

unsweetened allmond milk is delic, very healthy and hardly any calories - just 5 cals for a 25 ml splash

Well I didn't lose a single pound this week.

My calories since my last weigh in were:
Fri 1995
Sat 3671
Sun 1586
Mon 670
Tue 700
Wed 1600
Thur 2000

'Earned' quite a few exercise calories too which I try and ignore

My TDEE is 2303 on sedentary. So Saturday wrecked it all.

Well done everyone who has lost this week, even 1 lb is in the right direction 😊 my fuck it button has been well and truly pressed I know why, it's because I have a night out tomorrow so my mind is convincing me 'well you are going over your calories anyway so why not have a glass of wine now and biscuits, and crisps and start afresh on Monday (and hangover more than likely on Sunday )

Any advice how to make sure I switch the button back off on Monday. ..

I managed my second fast day today. Vegetable soup for lunch and then vegetable stew for dinner. I feel ok, but hungrier than I did for the first one. I found it harder because everyone else was having lovely warm buttered ciabatta with their stew and I had to resist! I'd planned to be a bit more relaxed at weekends, but I think for my first weekend I'm going to be quite controlled. I don't have a stop button when it comes to sugary treats so I'm better off just resisting altogether! I'm hoping eventually I'll train myself to eat it in moderation!!

Well done to everyone who has lost this week. I'm weighing in tomorrow so fingers crossed!

Well done on your 2nd FD, Dinner
I think you need to boost protein, to reduce hunger and reduce the starches (potato, rice etc)
If you are vegan / veggie, then add beans, lentils to your veg
If not, add fish / chicken, eggs

Maybe spice it up too, with chilli or curry spices
Also, soup is more filling if very chunky, not smooth.

dietname You had a good calorie deficit for the week, which would have corresponded to about 1lb fat loss.
However, this coukd be hidden because weight can naturally fluctuate due to undigested food, retained water, hormonal swings.

If you lost quite a bit in the initial phase, it's common for your body to pause for a week or so, before resuming loss. This seems to be part of getting used to fasting.
Also, some people just tend to lose in fits and starts, at the same overall rate as most others, but just not linearly

So, be patient, stay on track. Weight loss is what happens over several weeks, not just on 1 particular week.

Thanks for the tips BCF. It actually was a chunky soup, and the stew was a spicy Iranian vegetable stew I'll try to add more protein next time. I definitely could have put some beans in the stew.

Well I got through yesterday's fast fine, ending on 630. I'm happy with that, as I only ate one meal, of a baked fish salad, with the rest made up of tea. I really will have to try the almond milk if I want to continue with my future as a teapot. Looking forward to breakfast today, then off to look at puppies!

Yep.... body was just trying to annoy me! Another 0.5lb down this morning!!! So just crept into the 13's

Dinner sounds a delicious FD but yes - protein would make a big difference to hunger!

BCF - I'm excited and amused to be close to completing my elephants willy - please don't feel the need to show me a picture at the end of it though!

Hi all, can I join in? I'm doing first fast day today. I'm 5'4" and 10st 5- so BMI just ok, but I know that I eat too much and carry too much fat around the middle. Hoping this will work as a sustainable plan. I am training for a 10k so fasting on non running days. Looking forward to it. Had two cups of black earl grey, packed a small tuna salad for our picnic and have a beef and mushroom stew in the slow cooker for tonight!

Back from holiday and only 5 weeks till another one. Planning on a 4:3 plan for the next few weeks. Did it one week and it was pretty easy (as long as I meal planned). Is 4:3 sustainable for just over a month?

Welcome, bestbees Have you got a particular race for the 10k or do you just want to build up running ?

Congrats on your SV, MrD You've cracked through into the 13 stone somethings - enjoy the feeling.

Onlyweigh Yes, for your one month interlude between vacations, 4:3 sounds a good idea. Make sure the NFDs stay within TDEE, so that it genuinely boosts weight loss

Hello, I started this 3 weeks ago at 139lb, 5ft 7 with a goal of 126lb before holiday 6 weeks today. I have zero willpower so this diet seems to work for me. Lost 2lb in the first week then nothing, but a further 1lb off today :-). I'm fasting on tues and Fridays while LO is at nursery.

I have a few questions tho, one of my (many!) bad habits is 3 cans of diet coke a day, has anyone found that this slows down weight loss?

I'm also under a lot of stress, and have become very anaemic, any advice of how to eat iron rich while on fast days please? I try to save 80 cals for emergency hot chocs.

Finally, find it really hard when seem to plateau (I did this diet 2 years ago but couldn't get past 7lb loss). Given my holiday deadline, any tips to try and boost loss or at least stop plateauing?

Thanks in advance, this seems like a really supportive group.

Well, have spent a couple of days practicing now eating until lunchtime! And it's working and has meant that overall I've had less calories each day ( until the wine in evening, but then it was only 2/3 glasses so so less than I'd normally have - oops). So going for a FD on Monday and hopefully will be more successful than last weeks!

Have a lovely weekend everyone.

Morning all

Had a very successful FD yesterday - 200kcal thanks to having eye surgery and sleeping most of the day and night! A bit of an extreme way to do it though, not sure I fully recommend it

However I could see as soon as I opened my eyes this morning, it's amazing!!! So in my eyes you all look fricking gorgeous - count it as an NSV all round

delivered, your post made me smile! Hope you are recovering well from surgery.

NFD for me today and oh my Lord have I not fasted . I went out for lunch to a fancy pub for DH's birthday treat today... and ate 3 courses plus petit fours and a pint of bitter shandy. I feel ok about it as it was a special occasion and I had planned to fully enjoy my meal as we don't get to go to these sorts of places very often (maybe once a year we go to a Michelin star place and this was it). I dread to think how far over my TDEE I have gone though...

Yesterday was good, I ended up having about 470 cals, didn't eat till lunchtime today and felt pretty good doing it. Will be keeping an eye on things tomorrow and Monday. Planning FD for Tuesday (though might do tomorrow or Monday if I'm feeling motivated). Will weigh in on Tuesday too. Fingers crossed today won't have blown things for the week.

That's wonderful your eye op went so well, Kiki

Part of what makes this WOE sustainable, LadyA is that you can enjoy special feasts such as your DH's birthday do.

**

dibly Many people lose in fits & starts rather than linearly, but the overall trend shoukd be downwards.
Since you are already within the healthy BMI range, your loss will not be the 2-3 lb per week that thise with a few stone to go often see.
However, with 5:2 the trend should average 1lb per week, unless you have issues like PCOS, thyroid or some meds.

When people plateau after not losing much, it is nearly always because they are regularly eating back the FD deficit on NFDs - weight loss basically comes from consistently achieving a weekly calorie deficit.
Some people have become used to eating more than their body can burn, hence their "natural eating" on NFDs stops weight loss.

Diet fizz

• may affect gut flora or increase appetite in some people. Other folk have no problem
• It can reduce absorption of some minerals. Probably worsens your iron deficiency
• 3 cans per day is excessive. It's 1litre ! . Drink more water - keep a bottle with you. Cut down to 2 cans, then 1 can

Suggestions:

• mfp for at least a week or 2, to check to check you normally achieve a weekly deficit. mfp helps train you in portion size, highlights hidden calorie bombs
• Calculate your TDEE using the OP calculator (taken from Mosely's site) and set your activity level at least 1 level lower than you think - most people over-estimate. . For quicker loss, set to sedentary
• Do NOT eat back exercise calories unless via your TDEE settings. Gadgets don't produce accurate calorie figures for the whole day.
• Eat meals every day, with no snacks in between.
• Do you crave sugary carp / carbs / lots of fruit ? Is your excess weight around your waist ? . If so, you may be insulin-resistant and in addition to a weekly calorie deficit, you may need to go lowish carb to lose successfully

To increase Iron on FDs (& NFDs too)

Best sources (in descending order) are meat / fish / poultry:
liver, clams, oysters, beef, sardines, turkey, chicken, salmon, tuna, haddock, ham
We recommend boosting protein anyway, to reduce hunger. So win-win.

For vegetarians: Eggs

Important for Vegans
With vegetarian sources of iron, you must combine them in the same meal with food containing vitamin C, to enable sufficient absorption.
So
Combine Vit C sources - especially good: apple, tomatoes, pomegranates, peaches, dates, bell peppers
with iron sources - recommended: spinach, soy / kidney beans, chick peas, lentils, almonds, walnuts, sesame seeds, broccoli, baked potato

What worsens Iron Deficiency
because they reduce absorption of iron:

• Fizzy drinks - Tackle that 3 can coke habit. Reduce to 2 cans, then 1, then just an occasional treat.
  Switch to water.
  On NFDs, have a small glass of freshly pressed OJ with a meal - not on its own

• Caffeine - Switch:
  . from ordinary Coke to Caffeine-free immediately, in oarallel to cutting down the fizz
  . from ordinary coffee to decaf
  . from ordinary tea to herbal

• Milk - switch to a substitute. Almond milk is v healthy & v low cal

Thanks bigchoc. It was a lovely treat . Back on track now.

BigChoc- I am doing the Bristol 10k. Am not really a runner so finding it a massive challenge!

First day almost done, not too bad. Pretty pleased given I have been on my wet all day with toddler twins- pedometer says 6k! I have a few calories left to eat some blueberries.

I have enjoyed the feeling of saying to myself I can have it tomorrow. Much easier than a diet that feels endless, and actually I think quite a healthy mindset, to get back to occasional treats not mindless eating. However it has been hard resisting husbands homemade freshly baked sourdough!

Looking forward to popping in and out of thread for support and tips.

Thanks Big Choc that all makes sense. My diet us generally good, but have some gynae issues, thus the iron deficiency, thus feeling tired and reaching for diet coke. And biscuits. Agh! But will reduce.

Weight is round my middle and tum, always crave sugary stuff, but recently olives too (yes I know). Will try to reduce carbs too.

I've had a fairly healthy Saturday. I had a small slice of cake at the cafe, but other than that no snacking and no massive portions. However I've discovered I've been eating far too much cereal! I normally just fill the bowl and kind of assume that's a portion. Today I weighed it after I'd poured it in and it was triple the suggested portion size - 120g instead of 40! I'm doing 16:8 during the week so I'll just skip the cereal Monday to Friday, and then enjoy it at the weekend.

I also have a really bad Diet Coke habit. I'm trying to cut it down, but concentrating on stopping all my other snacking first. Hopefully I'll eventually stop drinking it altogether! I know it's such a waste of money but for some reason I can't stop buying it.

Do people normally weigh after a FD or a NFD?

That event will be an exciting experience for you, BestBees
Anglaise is a superb runner who pops into our 5:2 ExerciseThread3 if anyone posts about running. We talk about all types of exercise there, at all levels,
Pop over and visit us You can try the running calculators in the OP.

Dinner We usually recommend weighing the morning after the 2nd FD of the week, to try to reduce variability due to undigested food.
So, weigh naked, 1st thing in the morning after loo but before eating or drinking anything.

Most breakfast cereals have masses of sugar too, then add the lactose from the milk and you have a very high GI breakfast that can cause sugar crashes & cravings later. People tend to have huge portions because its not filling.

I suggest porridge (not instant powder) with almond milk & cinammon, optionally berries & a few flaked almond.
I mix mine with ground flaxmeal, which is super-healthy and high protein, hence filling.
I pour boiling water over 40g of the porridge / flaxmeal mix with cinammon (optionally add stevia or Splenda) and stir while it thickens. No need to nuke. Then stir in the almond milk. Then add any fruit & nuts