5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Morning!

How awful justtryin

Fast day for me today. I know there's going to be lots of cake at work today so I'll have to stay out of the staffroom. I've not had the best few NFDs so I really need to nail today's FD.

I'm doing quite well at not having snack at home. I've not been buying anything at all and find I don't miss it when it's not there. I'm still really struggling when I'm with other people though and they offer me something, or if I meet up with someone and they're having cake/ ice cream. I need to meet up with people in less food orientated places! I always meet friends in cafes!!

Morning! FD here anyone else? Working on 16:8 on NFD if not following FD with some success. Hoping to get that embedded then tackle the hardest thing, no snacking! Plan to bring in no week day snacking to start with. Will also be attempting a run today, interested to see how it goes.
Good luck to those fasting today!

Morning everyone!

Good luck best, dinner and all other Friday fasters. I've said it before, and it's still true - snacks are the devil's work! And something I have to say is a work in progress, for me. I (sometimes) find it helps to ask myself who it is that really wants me to eat that crap: a healthy shot of anger/indignation at the marketing, advertising and food (especially sugar) industries often helps. As in, why should I make myself fat and unhealthy to boost their profits?

Rant over. I got a much needed boost this morning, 2lb off this week so back on track. A long way to go yet though, so MFPing this weekend as weekends are a danger time for me!

drop, yes, muscle is denser than fat, so plenty of people who start/increase exercise find they get leaner without losing weight , at least to start with. It's funny how we concentrate so much on what the scales tell us: I know I would be happy to lose the inches rather than the lb if I had to choose. I'm sure if you keep up the eating regime you described, the weight will start to come off. In the meantime, enjoy the "less wobbly" NSV

Despite almost abandoning FD yesterday i finished on 580 cals. Which is not bad as i went running too. Rewarded with a 1lb loss too. Woohoo!

Morning all - happy Friday to you all!

Friday FD here, managed to keep yesterday 300 below TDEE easily so happy with that.

justtrying - that sounds awful, hope you recover well and soon!

Deepblue - well done on surviving the FD and congrats on the SV as a result!

Mttum - well done on the SV - well deserved!

Hi all, I was doing so well on 5:2 for about 6 weeks and lost a stone. I was so pleased and could already feel the difference in my body. I was reading this thread nearly daily to keep motivated.
I started taking antibiotics for 2 weeks and although I was still 5:2 ing the scales didn't move at all. I told myself not to get demotivated and it was just the infection and antibiotics in my body that meant I wasn't losing. I knew this mentally, but emotionally I slipped. The last week I've been binging! I haven't had a FD and I've been eating chocolate, cake, you name it! I'm so disappointed with myself and I'm scared to get on the scales. I feel puffy.
Every morning I tried to motivate myself but couldn't feel it. But thankfully I woke up this morning hating this puffy feeling (water retention) and I'm going to start again! I'm going to eat sensibly today. Tomorrow I'm going to a wedding but Sunday is going to be my first FD for just over a week!
Reading this thread really helps me and although I don't post very often I'm grateful to those that do.

for you justryin

finding welcome back I too have found a lot of support here and as the worlds laziest person it's the only diet I've ever had success on. I know you can do it.

Thanks for the advice on alcohol BFC, good to know.

Well done on the SV mttum

Morning! FD here too so just singing in quickly before heading out with DD

Welcome back, findingpeace That's the most important step, deciding to change.
Good luck on your Sunday FD; quite a few of us do a weekend FD or mini-FD, to keep the weekend under control.

Some infections or illnesses can cause water retention, hence weight increase.
Also, some people lose a stone or so, then need to get NFDs under control before progressing further.
I suggest you mfp for a week, starting Sunday, in case you need a reality check about portion size.

Congratulations on your SVs, mtum, deepblue
MrD If you are weighing tomorrow, you may still have a little water retention if your body had a lot of repairs to do after the MoonWalk. Don't worry, it'll soon go.

Drop You are doing very well with c25k and keeping within TDEE.
However, while exercise is excellent for health and shape, for some people it just gives a slight boost to weight loss, rather than anything dramatic. It really is true that weight loss is at least 80% diet, 20% exercise, unless your workout is really intense and high level.

You may have temporary water retention while your body repairs itself and adjusts to running. So keep going and you should lose this, plus some fat.
For most women, exercise causes very little real increase in muscle mass, but strengthens & tones what you have - even a woman who regularly lifts heavy barbells would be doing brilliantly to build 1lb of extra muscle per month.
Running / cardio does not increase muscle mass to the same extent as lifting, but it burns fat and make your muscle more visible & toned.

A singing Kiki

Hi all not kept up with all the news here this week, been a pretty difficult week here in Clearskies household and, sad to report, am wobbling off my 'wagon'.... currently drinking lots of water and trying to reconnect with a posisitve mindset and get back on said wagon. It's the same old story - stress and tiredness conspire to me slipping back into snacking, eating a bit too much, then alot too much. Gggrrr, 3 stone down and I get lulled into a false sense of security that I won't ever slip up again, but sadly not the case.

Going to catch up on the thread now and get remotivated

Have a good weekend everyone

Evening all, kitchen closed on around 520 tonight

Just having a last cup of (decaf / lactose free) tea and then will have another pint of water before bed.

Thanks for the heads up BCF - I'll not get despondent if thats the case, I'm getting pretty good at trusting the structure

clear - sorry to read you're having a bad time, chin up and glug the water. Hope you're feeling better soon!

welcome back findingpeace

Couple of NSVs here - firstly I resisted and offer of left over garlic bread when popping to a friends for a cuppa this evening

also - we were running late for beavers, and had parked a little way away (opposite said above friend) so ran from the car around to the beavers hall. Now - in times past I could have done this, but a) only after having my inhaler, and b) only when running regularly.... tonight I ran the whole way with NO asthma attack and NO breathing issues as soon as my mega blister is healed I can't wait to get back running properly!

Morning. 9.13 this morning so stayed the same. Ok with that as my NFD were not great, though have had some success with 16;8. Also still means average loss of two pounds a week which is great. Tried not to eat as long as possible, had boiled egg and mushrooms at 5ish. Ran at 7 and felt pretty sick, so not sure about exercise on fast days for me. Plan for this week is keep going on 16:8 on NFD that don't follow a FD. Try to focus on protein n veg and not carbs.

Clearskies sending you some positivity. Be kind to yourself and take each day as it comes.

Great NsV OohMr, a reminder that it's about Health and fitness not just numbers on the scales.

Good luck to any Saturday fasters. I have some shakshouka simmering away to break my fast!

Well done on your fitness & health NSV, MrD That makes a real difference to how well you feel

BestBeas i suggest you keep fasted runs to 20 mins until you get used to it. Maybe practice on NFDs first.
Did you try double espresso 10 mins before, to help release bodyfat for fuel ?

Don't beat yourself up, clear Your reactions to stress are biological, not lack of willpower:

Effects of Prolonged Stress

Prolonged stress causes the release of hormones including adrenaline and then cortisol, which naturally makes weight loss more difficult.
This is for evolutionary reasons:

Stress for our ancestors meant a physical threat - hence the fight or flight hormone adrenaline - which can trigger mindless eating as thoughts churn around in your head
Following this, they needed to replenish fuel quickly - hence cortisol to increase appetite for high calorie fatty sugary food.
Excess cortisol also slows down your metabolism, to maintain your fuel reserve (bodyfat).

Over days & weeks, this increases visceral fat deep in the belly, where there are many cortisol receptors to boost fat storage.

Anxiety can cause lack of sleep, which may disrupt the functioning of hormones ghrelin and leptin, which control appetite.

What Helps Stress

Exercise - especially vigorous exercise - distracts your brain from churning thoughts
It reduces cortisol levels and boosts metabolism back up again.
It also releases chemicals which relieve pain and improve mood. Exercise in company or with music can boost this.

So, go running, lifting, dancing, gym.
If you are not very fit, then do walking intervals outside - 1 minute brisk / 1 min normal pace - or dance to your fav music in the lounge.

Other Physical / Mental Tasks Chores that require physical effort and mental concentration may work in a similar way to exercise.
Seeing clean cupboards or a weeded / planted garden rewards you with a feeling of accomplishment.

Write in a Journal your experiences and feelings.
This keeps hands & mind busy and can also give insight.

Non-Food Rewards relieve stress:
Yoga class, massage, new hairdo, nail polish, new book

Mindful Eating Programs train you to slow down and tune in to your sensory experience of the food, its sight, texture or smell.
You learn to tune into your subjective feelings of hunger or fullness, so you eat only when hungry.
This helps you eat better quality food, to provide the nutrients your body needs and help calm your mind. Junk food can wreak havoc with your hormones & emotions and sets up cravings spirals.

Improve Sleep:
Cut out caffeine (coffee, coke) after 3 pm. Have herbal tea.
Any exercise should finish at least 2 hrs before you go to bed
Plan your routine so you go to bed sufficiently early for 8 hrs
The last hr before bed, no electronics - TV, tablets, games etc. and make sure your bedroom is dark. Turn off the light from any electronic clock or alarm.

BFC I didn't dare to have the espresso, was worried I wouldn't be able to sleep!

1.5 on today.
Been off sick this week because of stress and an increase in anti depressants and haven't done any fast days and it has been death by bread so not a surprise at all but do feel like I've let myself down.

mooey
Don't add to your stress by beating yourself up. Take it slow, maybe introduce some more nourishing foods, drinking plenty of water. Get back on the wagon because you want to, not because you feel you must - that'll make you more stressed.
See bcf's tips above on handling stress. Take care.

Had a really crappy week and feeling a bit bleugh with a sore throat, headache type of thing. Also incredibly tired and stressed. So apart from Tuesday's fast, have had a bit of a disaster, frankly.

I actually woke up yesterday and Thursday really hungry and mostly stayed that way and have been craving carbs.

Haven't eaten yet this morning and feel OK to hang on for s bit longer, so hoping today and tomorrow I can be sensible and then do a fast on Monday when I'm out travelling and going to meetings most of the day.....

BestBeas Sorry I thought you meant 7am training - morning fasted training is usually much easier.
If it's 7pm, I still have caffeine. However, I have about 350 cals at lunch and then a 150 cal protein-based meal, e.g. a shake, after training

It's natural to crave carbs & high cals when stressed, Mooey
Also, some ADs cause weight increase, either by switching hormones more to fat storage, or by increasing appetite. Your GP can advise about different ADs if you find the current ones cause this.

Try to base meals around protein and veg, with sensible portions of starchy carbs.
Avoid snacks - reassure yourself you won't die of hunger before the next meal
If you can manage some exercise, this might help distract you from food.

Zeek Pamper yourself this weekend if you can: plenty of sleep, nourishing meals, avoid junk & booze.
This will help your immune system, which is probably fighting a bug.
It will also give you a good base to start next week.

Morning all,

Weigh in today shows 13st 11.5lb - so 1.5lb loss - happy with that!