5:2 Thread number 63: 7 days without chocolate makes one weak ! On 5:2 you only diet 2 days a week.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Evening all

Hope everyone is enjoying their bank holiday weekend? I've had a slightly over TDEE day today - not worried, its been mostly good food and it all balances out

Fab SV Dinner! 4lb is an ace start. I need to have a rummage in my drawers and try some more old clothes on I think - hopefully there will be at least a couple of things that a) fit again and b) I still like!

Jengles, I love IKEA meatballs! You lucky devil, I've not had them in ages mental note for next weekend Hope you're feeling better after the bug, and listen to BCF - have a sensible week!

Thanks for all the congrats everyone - just goes to show, keep going and the results stack up! I've rarely gone all out, I've had odd weeks off, I've had takeaways and meals out, but for me - this is a lifestyle. I'm just plodding through life finding myself again and making myself happy focusing on the health benefits, the weightloss is a very happy side effect.

Thank you bcf, very wise words Was beginning to think a healthy TDEE week might be best anyway, so that confirms it. Marathon not sprint etc etc

Thanks MrD, def feeling a thousand times better today! And enjoy sorting through your old clothes, I did similar and found a couple of old favourites that I'd forgotten about.

Actually, that reminds me of an NSV - got my work trousers out a few weeks ago in readiness, tried them on last week and they're too big, so put them all away again! Am now just fitting into some old trousers from when I lost a lot of weight about 4.5 years ago, hopefully in a few more weeks they'll fit even better.

Congrats on your trousers NSV, Jengles

Drop Exercise from low intensity cardio (like walks) is healthy but doesn't help some folk much in losing weight, various reasons:
Gadgets give gross calorie burn, but don't substitute the calories you'd burn anyway by being awake; your body dials down the rest of the day to compensate ....

Also, the 2nd time around on any WOE is sometimes slower, either because usually because of calorie creep or because metabolism has changed, possibly due to life events, junk, stress, meds, pill change, thyroid, insulin resistance ...

Hmm, is the weight gain mostly around your waist, or all over ?

Suggestions:
Since you had an initial loss, then none for 2 weeks, time to shake things up:
. For the next 2-3 weeks
. Average 1600 on NFDs
. If your weight gain is mostly waist, go low carb. Otherwise, just cut down on sugary junk & booze
. Then review progress

That might be enough to get things moving, so you can then allow more cals

I just spotted you skipped an FD. You need 2 per week to lose around that 1lb weekly

Morning!
FD here today. Soup in fridge and turkey chilli in slow cooker for tea. Doubt I stayed in TDEE yesterday as at a food fair and couldn't resist lots of yummy things! Trying to be slow and steady about this as I want it to be sustainable so working on just getting fast days embedded and then hoping that NFD start to come together too, at least that's the theory!
Ran 7k last night so feeling positive for my race in two weeks. Found with running that if I was kinder to myself - focusing on being out, and getting distances done even if it involved stopping and walking for a bit, has kept my motivation up and helped me improve, hoping for the same effect with this WOE.
Anyone else fasting today?

Morning everyone! I've invited my dad down for a BH roast dinner today, forgetting that Monday is my usual fast day! Ah well, it'll be tomorrow now - I find them easier at work, anyway.

I've woken up with a bit of a hangover this morning. Not from booze, but feeling headache-y and lethargic after a surfeit of ice cream and tiramisu last night! I gave up alcohol a year ago, but seem to have substituted an addiction for sugary rubbishy, which I need to get round. Well, if I've beaten the fags and the wine, sugar shouldn't be too difficult - should it?

Hope everyone has a good bank holiday. Thanks to the nurses, doctors, shop workers and all others who are working today, and af course good luck to all fasters

Good morning! I completed 2 FDs last week. I'm pleased with myself for managing one while doing a 26hr shift!

On my NFDs, I'm tending towards a pattern of eating one giant meal (on a FD I eat a big tea of protein and masses of veggies). It seems to suit me and makes it very difficult to go over my TDEE of 1950. Yesterday I had a massive cooked breakfast at 2pm and that was me for the day! Today DP and I are off to continue helping his Dad to sort out his house and we will have a pub lunch somewhere too!

Thanks for the support clear I haven't given up... This is a WOL and I know there will be times when life 'gets in the way' but I still haven't learnt how to accept this and tell myself that this is fine but don't need it to last an extra day before and after the event I'll get there in time.

We'll done mrd getting into the 13's and we'll done on all the other svs

Hope you all have a good bank holiday

Hmmm. IKEA meatballs.....

Anyway, going for a FD here as well today. I've managed to get into the habit of not eating until about 12 and then will plan to have a biggish meal this evening - chicken with a sweet potato and lots of veggies.

Hopefully it'll be better than last week!!

bcf thank you for all your advice.

The weight gain is mostly round my waist, and when I start to lose it seems to be the last place to go!

I don't drink much alcohol, but sweet stuff is my downfall - chocolate, cakes and biscuits. I'm better than I was - replacing my daily chocolate bar with fruit - but there's always room for improvement.

Can you suggest any good 'on the go' breakfasts? I usually have cereals or cereal bars when I get to work, but I know they are very sugary. Are overnight oats ok, or should I just stick to yoghurt and fruit?

Morning all. I'm fasting today, so good luck to us all

Well done on giving up those horrid fags, mtum and wine too - you're clearly a hardcore health pro.
Sugar is the ultimate demonic challenge though
2 main approaches to control that demon, depending on your personal psychology:

either 2:5 it, i.e. only have on 2 days per week and try to make it one portion
or give it up totally, if 2 days would maintain the urge forever

Very few people who are really hooked can manage to stick to one small portion (say 10% TDEE) per NFD.

Stego I sometimes just have 1 big meal on NFDs, usually when I'm going out to a really good award-winning restaurant and I want my full (quite high) TDEE. All food - I have a glass of wine maybe 3 times per year.

That's right, Need 5:2 copes easily with social occasions - but just feast on that one day, or just one meal if it's just a night out.
You can bank calories for that, or just eat back some of the FD deficit. However if it stretches over 2-3 days, then the deficit is gone and often more.
Most of us stop 5:2 for vacations, but for a decent rate of weight loss, you need to stick to the plan for the other weeks

Morning everyone, fasting here too

I've slipped on my alcohol one day a week this week so am back on it as mum and dad are taking a short trip the next few days and will keep to it again - I'd got used to not even having mild headache in the morning!

What's everyone having for their FD menu today? I have pea and asparagus soup for one meal and two globe artichokes which I dip the leaves into a home made lemon and tahini sauce - because the artichokes take so long to eat they make me feel pretty fulfilled.

dropzone overnight oats are great, you'd have to do the calorie count as all the yummy stuff you can add to them can add up but I love them and you can keep them lower cal by soaking in almond milk or coconut water overnight and adding a handful of frozen raspberries

For NFD I like to add dates and grated apple over night and sprinkle a loads of hemp seeds on in the morning but the above is properly tasty too and if you pop it in a well sealed jar it makes and easy on the go breakfast

For omnivores, pre bake eggs with spinach or some smoked salmon in muffin tins, I'll see if I can find the recipe but undo that for the DC the night before quite often and they love it - bake then pop in the fridge overnight

Another one fasting today! Travelling back from my son's, find this suits me best. Nothing planned for dinner tonight - thinking of making a low-cal curry plus red kidney beans with some rice.

Didn't manage to fast at all, last week, so I may add another one later in the week.

Well done on giving up alcohol, mttum - it's something I can see myself doing sometime in the future. Doing BC's 2:5 I've found relatively easy - and I only had around 5 units over the last two days. It was no doubt helped by the fact that my son had had a couple of heavy days leading up to the weekend, so he wasn't drinking!

The 2:5 for sugar is, I must admit a little trickier, in that it's all around and everywhere, but I'm being pretty good on the snacking front. I do have something sweet after every meal - just a bit of cake or a square of dark chocolate. I've exhausted my stash of vegan chocolates, so I don't have that temptation any more.

Missed you there, Kiki. Glad to hear your op went well - now you can see clearly, eh? [grin

Changed my mind on dinner tonight - I have some vegan sausages defrosting here in the car, so I thought I'd have a socca omelette with sausage, mushrooms and tomatoes.

Looking forward to my water shandy! Only 90 minutes to go!

Drop What is important with sweet stuff is to have it as part of a meal, not as a snack.
Cereal / bars are usually low protein, high carb, often v sugary. So, spikes insulin, but you feel hungry again soon.
For a meal on the go, you could get a big tub of full fat Greek yoghurt (not flavoured) and put about 100 ml on a sealed container with berries, cinammon and flaked / toasted almonds, or mixed seeds & nuts instead of fruit. That is filling for some, not for others.

I rarely eat breakfast, just double espresso.
If I do, then at home: eggs / pnut butter on wholegrain
On a rare journey, I take an egg / tuna salad with me and at the station Bagel Factory get a wholegrain with lite cream cheese, smoked salmon, spinach, avocado, peppers.
Loads of filling, so I have an open sandwich half as breakfast and the rest with the salad for lunch.

Have chicken, sweet potatoes, broccoli, cauliflower and asparagus in the oven. Then that's it for the day - 627 cals, which, for me at the moment is a bloody miracle.

Looking forward to fasting tomorrow! I'm having lasagne AND chips for tea!

Lots of yummy sounding fast meals here. I quite like the way you can play around to get best food for you calories. I have had lentil and carrot soup for lunch and turkey chili with lots of veg for tea and feel full. We eat early to eat with the kids, so hope I can make it through until tomorrow now. I have decided that if I get starving a pnd struggle with sleeping I will eat a spoonful of Greek yoghurt and that is so filling. I would still be under 600 so not too bad and as I said before, I want this to work and thinking for the first few weeks it is getting into the flow then I can tighten things up.

52 I would love lasagne and chips, must plan that in for a NFD!

Actually felt full halfway through that meal and threw the rest out! So guess I must be under 600 after all, yay!

My new favourite lasagne is this

so much less of a kerfuffle too - and it would prob be a half decent FD meal!

Do people generally prefer two very light meals on a FD or one decent meal? It's FD for me tomorrow and I'm thinking of having a lovely lamb meatball recipe with lots of veg, but it's 500 calories so that would have to be it, no lunch. I find the idea of waiting until dinner time to eat quite scary for some reason!

I'm not a big drinker. I only really drink if it's a special meal out or for family occasions. Food has always been my greatest struggle! Especially sugar. I'm trying to have no sugar in the week, and just a slice of cake at the weekend. If I have chocolate I just have no control and eat far too much. My mum always manages to eat half a biscuit or half a chocolate bar, and put the other half away for the next day! I have not taken after her in that respect unfortunately!

Boring tech question here but I'm not getting my email notificatins any more for new posts on this thread and don't know why?

Evening all. Another fast day done, helped by a mega busy evening in work. Finished on 637, but I'm happy enough wth that. Had a gorgeous chickpea and spinach curry for lunch, and just couldn't leave any in the pan. Ready for the week now.

Dinner Some folk like to save all their calories for lunch - just keep drinking lots.
Or you could split that lamb meatball into 2 meals, each with loads of nonstarchy veg, but no starchy carbs.

The OP has links to FD recipes under the HOW TO START section
Tips:
. Tinned beans (e.g. butter beans, kidney, pinto, canneloni) or lentils are filling, tasty substitutes for starchy carbs. V healthy, great for blood sugar control, boost protein.
. If you rinse them thoroughly first, this gets rid of the non-digestable sugars which can cause farting / wind.

Well done on your FD Zeek and all the other Monday fasters

Cheeky re notifications, check if you accidentally set the thread to "unwatch" (watch / unwatch is at the top of the thread)