5:2 Thread No. 61: Add squats to your workouts - move the beer to the bottom shelf of the fridge. Join our friendly support group for the best lifestyle tips !

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to maintain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know , NHS 10 Recipes under 100 cals , Mirror 5:2 50 snacks under 50 cals
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight: 3D BMI ripped / normal , Bod Vis 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Exercise: BigChocFrenzy's thread gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise. The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Tips and Links : BreadandWine collects practical tips & info gained over all the 5:2 threads.

Inspirational EatRiskier has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Recipes: FrenchFancy has many FD recipes. Post your own here too.

Maintaining: talkinpeace's thread is for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining (some for 2 years +)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health
=========================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was FAT, not muscle or water, - in most diets, 25% of lost weight is muscle, up to 50% for sleb crash diets.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His recent article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Also this interview with a leading researcher into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

clearskies It's good to take advantage when you feel on a winning streak. A wholefood meal plan should produce a good rate of loss, since you are eating mindfully too.

Your body functions better and will return more readily to a healthy size when you supply it with proper food, rather than with what Michael Pollan described as "food-like substances" i.e. junk.

moo Nearly everyone needs a definite maintenance plan once they reach goal, on any WOE. Or they regain
Keep to your 5:2 BSD to reach goal, and this time go onto longterm BSD Maintenance, with an occasional FD, to stay there.

Many people have a limited list of homemade dishes, so once these are stored in mfp, it becomes much easier.
Also, you train yourself to know portion sizes and eventually you only need mpp say once per month, to keep you from portion creep.

Well done MRD Lokis Little and alll who have achieved positives this week.

Thanks BCF. My motivation is very high - very strong family history of type 2 diabetes, arthritis, stroke, dementia and I have been significantly overweight for a few years now with the dreaded 'apple shape' so have been heading in that direction myself.

I know I may hit difficult times or maybe even fall off the wagon but for now all I want is to give myself nutritious food and get back to good health. Don't even want junk or any sugar. Long may this last!

Even just a week on 5;2 has had profound benefits beyond losing weight, especially noticing my joints are significantly less stiff and siezed up which is a delight

Happy Saturday all!

doineedhelp, I must admit that I don't use the almond milk in tea. I do use it to make porridge and for in coffee though and I like it for that.

Thanks for the info on the sugars, BigChoc. From that list, I only really eat carbs/biscuits. Don't drink anymore and only eat apples and berries. I think it can only be too much of the carbs which is slowing me down now. I'll try some of the blood sugar diet recipes for ideas with lentils. Haven't got a clue what to do with them!

Morning all

Boldly Have you mfped for a week, to check you have a decent weekly calorie deficit ?
I recommend for a couple of weeks you aim for sedentary TDEE on NFDs and as always, don't eat back individual exercise cals.

Healthy recipes for lentils and Beans

Morning all. Have had a week off 5:2 and have thoroughly enjoyed it. Measurements the same but scales sale up 3 lbs. Back on it for a FD on Monday. The break was good psychologically.

Morning all

I've started my weekend with a 12 mile training walk for my moonwalk in may. Was solo for the first time as my friend couldn't make it this weekend. Decided to do the 6 miles to my parents, stop long enough to top up my water and grab a snack then walk back again - first 6 miles is fasted as I don't eat before heading off.

Did it in just under 3hrs 30 - the fast half was considerably quicker - so definitely getting fitter, but the last 2.5 miles were really tough. It came over freezing and my body started to seize up... so each of the last 3 miles were slower than before! BUT - I did it, I'm feeling shattered but really pleased with myself, and the rest of the day shall be spend recovering!

Afternoon all!
Well done on the walk oohmrdarcy!
Weigh day for me today and another 2 lbs down, so that's 11 in two weeks. Planning on adding in some extra swins this week too. Feeling rather motivated.

As to the almond milk, I like it but I prefer the hazelnut. Not for tea though, but just porridge and coffee, like boldly.

Yay to the SV MPP!!

Hello all!

NFD here today, did lots of walking and will come in under TDEE (only by a bit) to try and bank some more for our night away tomorrow! I'm toying with getting back into the gym next week now that I'm in the swing of this new WOE. I didn't want to give myself too much to do in the first week.

I use almond milk in porridge and chia seed puddings, I've never tried hazelnut but it sounds like something I might like!

Well done on your 12 mile walk mrdarcy that's a lot of steps!

11lbs in 2 weeks is amazing mpp you must be so pleased!

Oh my goodness I just Googled how to do squats, spotty dogs and burpees. No way can I anticipate doing burpees! Kudos to those who do.

Well done Darcy.

Congrats on your SV, MPP Great start.

Wow, you're getting very fit, MrD
Make sure you drink plenty of water today
A small rucksac might be useful for training and for the moon walk itself.
It could take say an extra pullover, scarf, tissues

Gym sounds a good idea, Pooch to ramp up health benefits and help firm up your body.

fusspot Just build up fitness gradually and you'll be amazed at what your can do.
For those with a lot to lose, best to leave jumping and running for later, to protect the joints.
Walking, cycling, swimming, lifting weights are all good to start. Burpees can come a bit later - they are excellent allround exercise
Plenty of support and ideas on the 5:2 ExerciseThread3

My wife and I - along with our DD and our 2-yr-old GC - went to Portsmouth to see my 94-yr-old MIL, this afternoon. It was lovely to see the oldest and youngest members of our family together! We also had a great - but chilly - time on Eastney beach flipping stones into the sea. (Not MIL, I hasten to add! )

Whilst at MIL's, I had a look at her copy of the Daily Fail - and I was very glad I did!

In it, there was an excellent article by Dr Michael Greger on the benefits of a plant-based diet.

He lists several major modern diseases that can be reversed or ameliorated by eating whole plant foods:

Cancer, heart disease, stroke, diabetes, Alzheimers and more!

As I've been saying for quite a while now, we'd all do well to heed Michael Pollans dictum:

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

This article is the first in a series of articles by Dr Greger.

Warning: There's a totally unexpected video of the mistreatment of baby chicks further down the page. Don't click on it unless you're prepared to be shocked.

I'll be opting for spotty dogs, squats and may try skipping. I had spd so lunges may not be for me. I have a mild prolapse, so jumping jacks may also not be for me!

Skipping is a great HIIT exercise, fusspot
However, if you have a prolapse and want to try it, go for the "low skipping" boxers use, where their feet hardly leave the ground, rather than the high jumping style you had as a kid.

B&W Michael Greger is known for cherry-picking studies supporting his views and the books he sells. It's natural for other vegans too.
Just like the low carbers were thrilled at the Uni Graz study that found vegetarians had slightly higher rates of cancer and slightly poorer health.

One needs to look objectively at ALL studies and research AND see what happens when people use them in rl

For decades, Greger's coauthor Dean Ornish has successfully helped some people with chronic heart disease with his very strict low fat plant-based diet.
He has literally saved lives.
However, he himself admits the diet is so strict & difficult that very few people can manage to follow it properly.

A major problem is that the healthy veggy-based high carb diet that some scientists have been advocating since the 1970s morphed into the unhealthy carby diet that helped fuel the obesity epidemic.

Also, it seems likely different diets suit different people & conditions, rather than that everyone should either give up all animal products, or give up all starches, or all wheat, depending on your diet guru.

Some people, with healthy insulin metabolism, thrive on a whole food diet with plenty of grains, little or no meat. They just need to watch total amounts of food.

However, those with T2, pre-T2, or just insulin resistance would nearly all do better on low carb, which means cutting right back on starches including grains. Low carb is much more difficult for a vegan, to actually find enough variety.

What would benefit everyone:
No smoking, always staying within recommended alcohol limits, exercising regularly, cutting right back on sugary junk, heavily processed starchy carbs and heavily processed meat, achieving & maintaining a healthy weight.

Thanks for all the congrats everyone - must admit, this morning I'm pretty chuffed with myself! Firstly because of how much faster the first half was, and secondly - for being sensible the second half. I felt it starting to hurt so eased back a little, I had a strength of mind I didn't think I had to be honest.. .2 miles from home - hips and back huring, all I wanted to do was stop, but I didn't

I wonder should those posts be going to the exercise thread - particularly as they are fasted training? < thoughts welcome!> Thanks for the tip on the rucksack bigchoc - good idea, particularly as the walks are getting longer now!

I was seriously tired for the rest of yesterday, so literally did nothing and let my body rest - I think it was the right thing, as I've got up and showered / dressed this mornig, and feel no worse than after the 8 miler.

Think I'm going to go for a monday FD this week - so drinking lots of water today to help recover and to prepare for tomorrow!

MrD The fact you feel recovered today after that long hike shows you have a good cardio fitness level now and your muscles have become used to working hard
It's quite suitable imo to post about moonwalk training here, because it is so interesting for most readers.

I recommend you also look at the 5:2 ExerciseThread3 as it is a good time to gently build up some upper body strength too, as crosstraining.

thanks for the shuffling skipper advice, Big Choc.

Well done MPP and MRD

Had a lovely active outdoor weekend here- walking and gardening lots. I'm definitely fitter than 2 months ago tho' still a long way to go!

But have eaten a bit more than I needed to, healthy real food just a bit too much of it. Frustrating but also need to remind myself of all the things being eaten around me that I'm happily declining - scones, chocolate bars, hot chocolate, crisps, toast, butter, all that kind of thing.

Great NSV here in that my joints are feeling alot better, more mobile and less stiff, which must mean I have significantly reduced the inflammation response in my body - Yay!

Would like to make today a FD but have a meal out this evening so am going to do a modified FD, break my fast at lunch with lentil soup and veg then have something at restaurant that doesn't involve cheese. Then proper FD tomorrow.

Have a good day everyone

Uggghh, I'm feeling you clearskies! I also ate healthily this weekend but a bit more than I should have. Rather hoping I'm not going to have done too much damage. First FD of the week here, but having a busy day as we're having our bedroom done out so I'm sure that will keep me occupied. :)

Morning all

Am going in for a monday FD here.... lunch will be soup and and a slice of wholemeal bread. Dinner possibly an omelette - haven't had one in a while... with loads of veg - need to check MFP for my cals as can't remember off the top of my head if that will work or not - if it doesn't, I've also got chicken I can have.

Going to hold out for lunch as long as possible as have parents evening tonight for DS, so won't get chance for dinner until DC are in bed.

1 pint of water down and I feel like I'm slacking already! Off to pour another one and make a cup of tea... I always find I drink much more if I make both at once!

Once tea is made I think I'll go for a quick 5:2 tabata fat blast before starting working properly for the day

Morning, have just caught up on all of your very exciting victories!! Well done to everyone .

I went to the wedding on Saturday.....ate fairly sensibly, declined cake (it was fruit cake and it's not my favourite), didn't drink tooooooo much......but def over my TDEE!! Then family lunch on Sunday, fairly fraught family dynamic and I ate too much so I didn't have to talk too much!! I haven't weighed myself today as its a FD for me anyway so I don't need motivation to stay under TDEE.

Can I claim getting used to black coffee as a NSV? .

Baby has been BFing like mad recently - not quite sure what's going on but it is making me STARVING! Hopefully will be ok on 500 cal today but if I need to go up to 700 I won't break my heart over it!!

Good luck to the Monday team!