5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I've lost track of this. last time we were talking about marmite on the old thread!
This is a good day to check in again and wish confused a fantastic day. I hope the sun shines on you!
I have had visitors and a cold to deal with but despite it all I'm now 8 St 12 lb, below my target weight (9st).
not sure where to go from here.i still have a bit of flab but really just to tone up rather than lose I think. I may revise my target to 8 St 8 but some charts would put that as underweight. I still want the benefits of fasting as I feel so good.no more joint pain ; I've not needed painkillers for 8 weeks and my knees are starting to cope with small squats (I couldn't get downstairs without pain before). I have gone down a bra size and clothes are looser but my lack of joining the pain is my biggest benefit. I'm quite emotional writing this actually. It has improved my life immeasurably. Thank you to all on this thread for the advice and support. even though I've rarely posted, it has kept me on track.
bigchoc not sure what you'd suggest. don't know whether to jump over to maintenance and exercise thread. I feel at home here but don't want to sound smug having reached my target and I am quote into my exercise now!
I find everyone's sv and nsv brilliant to read about. keep going everyone.

Have a wonderful wedding day, confused ! I'm sure you look lovely and happy

Congrats on reaching goal weight, Peach
I'm so glad it has helped your joint pain too and that you feel so good.

Is your waist less than half your height too ? If not, that's the next goal.

Post whereever you are happiest, but the maintenance thread moves quite slowly
I'm glad you are ramping up exercise. If you still have flab, then you have probably lost lean mass over the years (you lose muscle from your 20s onwards without regular resistance training) so you need to replace this to be slim, but not below healthy weight range.

So, I recommend working the main muscle groups: bum, thighs, back, shoulders. Strength rather than more cardio.
Squats and lunges are great for lower body; pressups, tricep dips, shoulder press for upper body.
Do check out the 52 exercise thread OP for lifting routines.

hevs Weighing after the 2nd FD each week is good, because it smooths out daily variation. In fact, the trend over a few weeks is the most reliable.
Some folk weigh daily, but that's only advisable if you won't get upset by daily fluctuations - these are mostly caused by undigested food and retained water, not changes in body fat %.
Some folk lose, or don't add much on NFDs; others get shocked after a carby weekend to have temporarily put on a few lb.

Well after my 2nd FD this week I am another .5kg done which is okay but much less than where I was the previous weeks. I have checked MFP and found that I had put in .5kg weight loss per week as my target so that is more or less okay but have now changed it to 1kg per week and that has reduced my TDEE down from 1,500 to 1,200 which should be okay. I really need to get stricter about the accuracy of my calorie counting - I think I may have been underestimating some foods.

Also I find since I cut out bread and other grains with gluten I am a little less 'regular' and feel a little sluggish in this area. I do drink a lot of water but I used to have a very high fibre wholegrain diet so I guess I am readjusting. Any thoughts on high fibre non gluten based foods that I could incorporate into my daily diet? I did read about psyllium husks but not sure if they are indeed a good food and fibre source or just a fad.

I'm not sure that's how TDEE works? I thought your TDEE was your maintenance calories and your deficit was achieved on FDs?

If you are doing 5:2 and only eating 1200 cals on NFDs you must be famished!

Hope you're having a great day confused.

Congrats on reaching your goal Peach.

Feel back on track this week after a few weeks of being very much off track. I haven't lost any weight but it is TOTM so I'm cutting myself a bit of slack. Waist is definitely shrinking - another pair of trousers now needing a belt!

I think the number that MFP gives is a daily calorie limit to reach the weight loss set by you. It reverse calculates. whereas the TDEE calculator uses only age, gender, current weight and height.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expedinture, or the number of calories your body burns in a day just by existing.

It depends on your weight, height, gender and activity level.

If you want to lose weight quicker or get through a plateau, eating under TDEE on NFDs is one way to do this. 1200 every day with two 500 kcal fast days might be hard to stick to, but not necessarily so. For example my sedentary TDEE for goal weight is only 1475 and there are days when I eat less than this. Listen to your body though as feeling really hungry every day is not sustainable in the long term. Many of us find that eating clean and cutting out snacking on NFDs will naturally lead to a smaller apetite and less cravings.

Calfon for high fibre gluten free foods try chia seeds, beans and lentils, crunchy fruit and veg like apples and carrots, whole oats, medjool dates (but watch calories in these). If you like it, try using Quorn instead of meat sometimes as it's high in fibre and low fat.

I mean gluten free oats, by the way, not all oats are.

Calfon mfp is great at logging calories, but we ignore the calorie targets it sets. Mfp assumes daily calorie restriction, whereas for 5:2 / IF calorie deficit is via the FDs. So, the mfp target might not be sustainable longterm for NFDs.

So, calculate TDEE and eat within this on NFDs to maintain the FD deficit; optionally a bit below TDEE if your weight loss is sluggish. Be careful not to overestimate your activity level - you can optionally calculate for sedentary, even if you train.

Do NOT eat back calculated exercise calories on FDs. They remain 500 /600 regardless.
Don't eat exercise cals back for NFDs either, because are notoriously over-estimated.

Just to show that this is not for weight loss : hopped on the scales at the gym yesterday : I've now been at happy weight since December 2012

I absolutely love love LOVE the positivity and caring on this thread, as well as all the fab info. That is all.

Calfon Glutein-free grains:
Quinoa, espcially brilliant for vegans / vegetarians as it contains the full amino acid profile too
Also, brown rice, wild rice, amaranth, buckwheat, millet

Other good sources of fibre are baked pots with skin, nuts & seeds.
High fibre beans are chickpeas & kidney beans
Obv, eat fruit like apples unpeeled.
I'd keep any dried fruit for NFDs, with small portions only, due to high GI

That's ace, tip and your pictures look super

Ok - now that makes more sense! I somehow missed the clickable TDEE link and I used the calculator on MFP to work out how many calories I should be eating daily to loose weight. Just recalculated using the link above and
My BMI is: 29.7
My BMR is: 6204 kJ / 1483 calories
My TDEE is: 7445 kJ / 1779 calories

Now with MFP it had worked out I need to eat 1550 calories per day to lose .5kg per week (of course this was not taking 5:2 into account). When I upped this to 1kg this morning it reduced my daily calorie intake to 12,000. I wasn't hungry at all on 1550 calories per day so will maintain this as a minimum and 1779 as a maximum.

Thank you all for the feedback and advice. I am now preparing pizza for the kids and dh. I have tried a gluten free base for myself for the first time so hopefully it will taste okay. My topping is tomato pasatta on base as it is cooking. Then I will top it with halved cherry tomatoes, shavings of parmesan and rocket with a little drizzle of olive oil. I expect it will be worth the calories!

mmm, that's a delic supper, Calfon
Your TDEE sounds reasonable.
General rule: If you aren't hungry, don't eat, because that means your body has enough fuel already. If you are hungry on NFDs, eat up to your TDEE.

Morning all. Thank you for your good wishes. I had a fab day, the sun shone all day, contrary to the forecast, and I even managed a sneaky nap in the afternoon! DD was tired so I took her home for a sleep and nodded off myself. It set me up for the evening and it was a brilliant night.
Aren't weddings odd? Your own wedding, I mean: I had 5 or 6 different 'friend groups', it was such a strange experience. Fab though. I need to work out how to set up a Flickr account so everyone can upload their photos.
We danced all night and I have no voice left. Didn't eat much in the evening (ate loads at lunch!!) but I have a feeling I drank plenty of calories ;-)
We're off to Devon to attend someone else's wedding on Wed. I'm looking forward to bring able to go with the flow!!
FD planned for tomorrow and I'm looking forward to it. I hope I haven't done too much damage!

Congratulations Mr and Mrs Confused. Your wedding sounds lovely.
I weighed and measured this morning as will be my plan. I'm 2 weeks and 4 fasts into this. I definitely feel better and my tightest jeans were a better fit yesterday. I only have 3 pairs that fit at all! I know that scales fluctuate. Up by 2 lbs this week but I also know it's about a trend not an hour by hour review. What I'm unsure about is where I should measure my waist. Is it around my navel or round the narrowest bit (hourglass figure!)

Huge congrats to you and your DH, confused. I thought about you yesterday when the sun was shining.

Here's to a long and happy marriage!

(44 years and counting, here! )

Lovely to see so many people doing so well on this WOL. I've got to tighten my belt a little - been over-indulging in cake and vegan chocolates too many of my favourite comfort foods such as lentil and potato hash!

A couple of low calorie days this week will sort me out, I'm sure!

Last week was Real Bread Week - organised by the Real Bread Campaign, of which I'm a member.

Thought you guys might like to see all the breads I/we managed to make in the week - 14 different varieties in total!

As you'll see, I left some Chelsea buns in the staffroom. Wonder how many will observe the terms and conditions I gave them?

Congratulations Confused! Sounds lovely.

I'm on day 3 post last FD and I feel like I have put on a little bit; have been trying to control calories a
lot better but not managing as well as I'd like. FD next week will be Tues and Thurs. Am looking forward to them in a way in order to 'reset'. I find that I don't stress about what I am eating on FD as much as on NFD. Tempted to try 3 FD, found 3 to be fine a week or so ago.

hey all- a real 'lapser' here.

Had some success with 5.2 late 2013/early 2014 and lost about 17lbs.

Went back to work (maternity leave) and its all crept back on.

I plan to come back on here for the proverbial kick up the arse -

Start tomorrow again- have some Miso soup for work.....

Congratulations, Mr and Mrs Confused What a lovely day for you.

Wow, B&W 44 years is impressive.

Welcome back, Emma and good luck with your FD tomorrow

waves Do you mfp on NFDs ? It helps train you to eat the correct amount, very important for maintenance later on and helps show up hidden calorie bombs. Also, mfp has shocked many folk by revealing how much they were exceeding their TDEE.

Congratulations to the newlyweds. Hope you had a smashing day - I love that you had a nap! Enjoy Devon.

I definitely recommend MFP, it's fab. I've meal planned for the week ahead with FD tomorrow and Wednesday. Stuck within TDEE this weekend despite sick kids.

Hope everyone else's weekend is going well.