5:2 Thread number 53: You won't get the bum you want by sitting on the one you have. Come join us ! You may not reach your goal next week, but you'll be closer than you are now.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

ACRONYMS & CALCULATORS:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI ( Body Mass Index ) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

HOW TO START
==========

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators
Calorie Counter: mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Good2Know
Alcohol: Calc Safe , Calc Units
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Body Fat: Calc

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• To speed up weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,

optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
====================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Congrats Meerka . It's successes like this that are keeping me going!

Mildly sorry to hear about your tough times.

After a few stubborn weeks I'm 3lbs down this week though weirdly an inch bigger round the waist. Think part of the problem there is I have quite a high natural waist line and vary where I measure depending on how bloaty I am.

Congrats on the SV, Chevron Always measure your waist at the narrowest point, even if that moves over the weeks. This narrowest circumference is the standard definition for a woman's waist and is a good indicator of visceral fat.

Yesterday's NFD was really tough. Didn't have much planned in the way of activities and I had the terrible munchies all day. Well over TDEE I think.
Hoping today will be better. Christening and subsequent bbq to attend...weirdly I always find I control my eating better in those situations.
Have a good day all.

Quick check in to brag report I knocked 2.5 minutes off my parkrun time. I'm quite delighted
Had a lovely day yesterday with family, didn't over drink, didn't overeat. Another day of temptation lies ahead, but having woke up with feeling in good form I won't go mad on the goodies today either. Run and fast prescribed for tomorrow - feeling positive and am not planning on bring out the scales until Friday.

Oops posted too soon, wanted to say well done Meerka, given me renewed hope that what can seem like impossible barriers can be broken though with perseverance

vvviola sorry to hear about your mum. Hope she is doing better.

I should have checked in Friday morning but had Internet problems so have to go back and catch up on all the posts now. When I weighed myself on Friday morning my scales (cheap aldi digital) initially gave same weight as last week and then when I turned it off and on it added an additional 2kgs . I changed the batteries when I started this so probably need to change again as there is no way I put on 2kgs. I actually had been thinking about dumping the scales and investing in a decent one that I can rely on if any of you have a model recommendation.

it was my daughter's birthday yesterday and think I should have kept more or less within my calorie allowance for the day. Friday was less successful but I didn't overeat by much. I am going to try for about 12,000 today.

I'll post this in maintainance thread too but getting closer to goal so I'm beginning to think and plan my maintainance approach.

Will 1 fast a week still give me the health benefits and help weight maintenance?
My goal tdee is 1400 but I don't always mange to eat all these so I don't want to jump up to 1400 everyday with one weekly fast, I feel like that would be too much and cause a gain!

Think this maintaining business is harder than the actual weight loss, fasting is straight forward but soon as you have to think about adding food it gets complicated!

Morning all.

Just wanted to post a NSV. I've been training for a 10K and using the highly scientific method of 'guessing' to time and measure my runs! I actually plotted my run online yesterday to discover that my 5K (hopefully nudging 6K) run is in fact just over 10K. So I have been running 10K for a couple of weeks now without realising And on FDs too!

I'm also struggling with maintaining. I can cope with FDs/NFDs quite well but if I go over my TDEE I still have that "Ah sod it" mentality. Luckily, I can get myself back on track with FDs but I don't want to be yoyoing anymore.

Your are entitled to brag, not2b a new park run ob, 2.5 mins off, well done indeed. Your running should continue to improve if you regularly manage at least weekly.
Don't forget to train your upper body too, maybe with some lovely pressups
Calfon The Tanita scales are quite popular here, but ignore the %body fat on any scales, as this fantasy reading varies wildly.

To weigh consistently:
. First thing in the morning, naked, after loos but before first drink of water.
. Keep scales in exactly the same place. Type of flooring, slight slopes etc all affect things.
. Change batteries frequently, so always full power.
. After switching on, wait 3 secs before stepping on, because the scales need to calibrate.
. Don't jump on; step slowly on so that both feet are fully on
. Don't lean to one side or to the front /back.
. Keep still until you take the reading, no fidgeting or leaning

Jimmy Congrats on your measuring the right distance NSV 10k. That's a good distance for burning cals and increasing cardio fitness. Now you can monitor times and go for a pb.
Also, add regular sprint intervals, to increase speed & fitness

btw, another example of measuring / logging being better than guesswork is NFD food & drink cals., People can madly underestimate those too.

hevs That's great you are nearly at goal and it's really sensible to plan maintenance:

One FD weekly is a popular maintenance system and we think gives health benefits. You can always add a second before / after vacations.

Also for optimum health, I recommend you ease into eating your full TDEE (which is fairly low anyway). This gives you the opportunity to add very nutritious but high cal food:
Oily fish like salmon & mackerel (if you are not veggy)
avocados
unsalted nuts
almond / cashew/ pnut butter
olive oil (NOT standard veg oil) drizzled over salads or baked veg
90% cocoa chocolate (v high antioxidant and v little sugar) e.g. Lindt Mild Excellence

btw, the recommendation of eating up to full TDEE is just for longterm maintenance with FDs. While losing weight, it is absolutely fine to eat below TDEE on NFDs

Thanks for the good wishes everyone. She's doing remarkably well - speech and eyesight are back, only slight weakness on one side now and the periods of confusion are decreasing.

We've been sitting in with her a lot asking difficult questions about kids she used to teach and holidays we went on years ago - her long term memory is better than mine

I'm trying to avoid coffee dock snacks and eating on the run. No fasting for the moment though.

Bigchoc,

May I ask, when you say you don't have to eat up to your TDEE on NFD's, is it ok if you're regularly considerably below? For example, not much above the FD 500 cals?

I'm wondering if it's negates the impact of FD's?

Thank you!

Choppings It's ok to average up to 20% below TDEE, e.g. 1600 cals for a 2000 TDEE, but don't get tougher than that.

You said not much above 500 cals, which means you are fasting on that day. Even 600-100 cals is a mini-FD. That doesn't matter if it is just a third weekly fast day.
However, for health reasons, do NOT fast more than on ADF, i.e. at most 3 or 4 FDs or mini-FDs in any 7 day period.
Yes, there is an experimental medical VLC diet for T2 diabetes, but that MUST only be done under medical supervision

If you have problems eating more, check my 9:43 post for nutritious high cal foods

Thanks big choc my 1400cal tdee is calculated at goal and sedentary although I am a gym goer 4/5 times a week. That list was helpful too! I eat clean and love fish and veg but I could add nuts to up my calorie intake. I feel satisfied with what I'm eating ATM and I'm losing fine but I'm going to find it hard to eat more but I will have to in order to maintain. I don't want to get complacent, I've cut out sugar to avoid binges on chocolate which has been a success so I don't want to revert to eating empty calories for the sake of it when I'm satisfied because that could trigger a chocolate binge and undo all my effort! Apologies if I've rambled

You're absolutely right not to make up the cals with junk.
My fav Mediteranean fish restaurant puts masses of olive oil over everything. Studies have shown that adding olive oil and nuts has considerable health benefits.
A great dessert is those big green olives stuffed with garlic cloves or almonds, with a few cubes of feta. Also, Greek yoghurt with nuts, seeds & berries.

Dip cucumber / peppers / celery into taramasalata or hummus, optionally with low carb mini-pitas (I'm just about to prepare this now)

Hey everyone. Sorry for the radio silence. I have been rather busy gardening, baking, and starting my blog (which was more challenging than I expected). But now blog is up and running and I am ready to join in!

Many good stories and helpful tips on here.

I had my last FD on Thursday, and didn't lose any weight. Ho-hum. Onwards and upwards so they say! After reading through this I learnt a bit about the TDEE, and decided to do a full measurement of me:

Height: 5'10" (178cm)
Weight: 12st 7lbs
BMI: 24-25
BFI: 33-40% gasp!
TDEE: 2200 cals

I try to exercise at least three times a week (including on FDs), though it does vary a bit and most of my classes are dru yoga, which isn't exactly high intensity. Last weekend DP and I went for a 4-5km walk in a local park, which was lovely. If the weather holds out I might just have to convince him to do it again tomorrow.

Next week will be a challenge as my set FD are Mon and Thu, but I refuse to fast on a bank holiday, and have a work related dinner on Thu. I might just do Wed only and work on a target of 1800 cals on the other days, whilst keeping up the exercise.

BigChoc: You mention the low cal sweetener as an alternative to sugar, but shouldn't aspartame be avoided like the plague?

Hi everyone! Hope everyone is enjoying their bank holiday weekend/halfterm holiday!!

I'm in desperate need of some stern words to tell me to get a grip.

I went to a wedding yesterday and every photo I have seen (my sisters took loads!!!), of myself, make me want to weep .

This makes me so cross with myself, for all sorts of reasons...mostly because yesterday was not about me, it was about my lovely friends getting married!!

On Friday, I finally dropped into the overweight BMI range (probably for the first time since I was a teen) and I am now 2 stone lighter than I was when I started trying to lose weight so I know there is improvement but the photos make me feel really miserable. I just can't see the progress. In the photos, I look as awful as I did 6 months ago .

Ds is going away for 4 days from tomorrow so tomorrow will be my first FD of the week.

Maybe a swim will help this evening...although, I have eaten so much today, I might sink!!!! Weak

cat Artificial sweeteners have been investigated in hundreds of scientific studies, probably more than any other substances we ingest. The EU have funded extensive studies, as have the governments of the UK, USA, umpteen other countries and organisations.

No proper scientific study have been able to find harmful effects, at least not unless you drink 40+ cans daily. There have been population surveys claiming to show higher risks, but these disappear once associated factors like smoking, junk food, exercise etc are considered.

The only proven issue is that for a minority of people, they can raise insulin levels and create the desire to eat something sweet. Most people don't have this issue. In fact several 5:2ers have a Coke Zero instead of a pud.

The main danger is that you will be subject to moral disapproval from those who like to be superior.

(({Hiccup})) < we do hugs on this bit of Mumsnet >
< passes over the sparkly 5:2 grip >

2 stone will have changed your appearance. I'm sure other people at the wedding noticed a difference, but didn't know whether to comment, especially on your friend's big day.

Give yourself a big pat on the back for moving out of the obese range into the merely overweight. The first time since your teens, that's such an important achievement !

That weight took years to put on, so you need several months to lose safely and sustainably. That weight you lose needs to be gone forever.
Monitor the pounds, inches and dress sizes as they drop away.
One pound at a time mounts up. Just be patient and you'll get there

< dusts off Hiccup > Now have a walk in the sun, or put on your fav music and dance indoors.
Tomorrow, enjoy your swim and nail that FD

cat Your measurements give BMI =25.1

Most folk don't realise what the activity levels in the TDEE calculator mean. Your walking and yoga are good for health, but count as light exercise for calorie-burning, so I suggest calculating TDEE for sedentary, then review after 2 weeks.
You don't say your age, but your TDEE at age 30 would be 1900 cals, dropping to 1850 cals aged 40.

Re body fat:
. Is your waist less than half your height ? If not, this should be the first aim
. Try to cut down on sugar, alcohol and swap white carbs to complex
. Do NOT eat back exercise calories or raise TDEE but
. Aim for at least 3 days weekly of intense exercise, cardio and lifting, dropping 2 yoga / walk days if need be. E.g. do c25k, HIIT, circuits, pump, spin, Zumba, martial arts ......

Thanks BigChoc,

OK, I'll up my intake on NFD's then. I better go and make something now!

Thank you for the advice!

Thanks, bigchoc

A few people have commented on a difference in my appearance and I know they probably do see it because I know I have lost weight but when I look at myself in those photos, I just see hideous.

My reaction to the photos has really wound me up because I am so pleased with all the things I have achieved so far but don't understand why I can't see it. I know it is not a quick process so why do I expect to look amazing.

Hmm, right, this is not achieving anything and is most likely very annoying for everyone in a positive frame of mind so I am going to take my grumpy face to the swimming pool and see if I can thrash out my mood and get a few lengths done.

Bigchoc - you and all the other posters in this section are so supportive and I am very grateful to have found you all...taking my sparkly 5:2 grip to the pool and just hope here aren't too many annoying swimmers there!!!

Apologies for the moan earlier! Am back from the pool...only managed 30 lengths, too busy to do more but happy that I have done even that many.

Going to tackle the many clothes mountains that keep springing up upstairs. Might try on my too big jeans to remind myself how far I have come so far .

Feeling more positive and very much looking forward to tomorrow's FD. Going to stay off FB tonight to stop myself looking at the photos!!!