5:2 / IF Exercise & Fitness Thread Number 3: Advice and information for those following Intermittent Fasting .... and anyone else too

[BigChocFrenzy]

Why Exercise ?

Maintaining a normal bodyweight and taking regular exercise are 2 major areas of life which we can address to improve our health.

Regular exercise helps reduce the risk of obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, some cancers, osteoporosis, dementia, depression.

Increasing your % muscle and / or reducing your % body fat lowers the risk of death from all causes LowerRiskMuscle

Regular exercisers gain the greatest benefits over their lifetime and they can minimise biological aging, i.e. "Bend the Aging Curve BendAge

Recent Research showed that lack of exercise is twice as likely to lead to premature death as being obese (BMI 30 -35)

Body Fat, Exercise & Diet
People who maintain their weight through diet alone without exercise are likely to have major deposits of visceral fat (the more dangerous kind around organs), even if BMI is ok.

They are TOFIs (Thin Outside, Fat Inside)

A MRI study found that:
45 % of women and nearly 60% of men with “healthy” BMI, had excessive levels of visceral fat i.e. clinically overweight

A Can J Card study showed visceral fat can be burned off via exercise, even if weight is unchanged (increased lean mass)

Hormesis

Hormesis, see Mattson , BlackSwan and Stronger is cutting edge science for nutrition & fitness.

Its principles are that alternating between “extremes” - e.g. feast & fast (5:2 / IF) , intense training & rest (HIIT) - makes the body more resilient.

The intermittent stress of lifting an extreme weight or performing at high speed for a short period pushes the body to overcompensate and prepare for an even greater future challenge HormesisTrain , Hormesis-Edge , and AntiFragile
The following recovery period avoids damage from over-stressing.

Fasted training

i.e. training on FDs (Fast Days), seems to increase the benefits of both training and IF.
Most experienced exercisers soon manage fasted training without loss of performance for sessions of up to 90 mins.

TYPES of Exercise

Main types: Aerobic, anaerobic, flexibility.

All exercise will burn fat, the more intense the faster the fat burn

Anaerobic
e.g. HIIT (see below), sprints, strength training
. Shorter training period
. Increases the RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate) for up to 48 hrs
. Soon increases fitness
. May help correct insulin metabolism issues & target abs fat.

Aerobic
e.g. walking, running, cycling, swimming
. Longer training period
. May burn more calories during exercise, if it is lasts much longer than HIIT, but burns fewer afterwards
. It is easier to do for the less fit

Flexibility, Stability, Relaxation
e.g. yoga, stretching

The best exercise routine is one you enjoy and is sustainable.

HIIT cardio and resistance training / weight lifting are especially recommended to boost the effect of 5:2/IF, to increase weight loss, reduce body fat, retain muscle and maintain TDEE / BMR.

HOW to Exercise

If you are a very overweight unfit beginner:
. Check with your GP before starting exercise
. Start by walking 5-10 mins twice per day, gradually increase
. Try walk intervals: alternating 1 min faster pace, 1 min normal
. Build up to a brisk 30 mins daily walk and you will significantly improve your health & fitness
. Swimming is also good, preferably crawl or back stroke for less strain on back & joints.

Everyone Else:
Whether you join a gym or train at home or in the park:

• Train as intensively as your time, health and fitness level allow.
• Do not remain in your comfort zone, or you will not improve. But stop immediately if you feel any sharp pain.
• You are supposed to drip sweat and pant heavily !

Efficiency / Intensity: This Study proved that at speeds of 5mph or faster, running will burn more calories per mile than walking

HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training)

HIIT is an exercise strategy which alternates brief intervals of high intensity exercise with less intense recovery periods

. Very time-efficient, producing the greatest fitness benefit in the least time (the advantage of hormesis)

. Increases both aerobic and anaerobic endurance

. May improve insulin metabolism, very important for health and abs fat.

. Reduces risk of heart problems more than doing lower intensity SteadyState , pp. 31-34.

HIIT can be applied to cardio or to bodyweight exercises, at home or gym.
Most gyms offer HIIT classes, e.g. spinning, circuit training, CrossFit, Tabata, Fartlek (=HIIT with irregular intervals)

FAST Exercise

"No time" to exercise ?
Or want to boost fitness & fat-burning metabolism

Dr Mosely developed a FastExerciseProgram to complement his 5:2 WOE
His Fast HIIT and strength routines can significantly improve metabolism & fat-burning capability

Other scientists like Tabata have developed routines now wisely incorporated in training.

HIIT Fitness Blasts

A few mins per day, 3-5 days per week

START with 2 mins warmup then EITHER

Sprint or Rope-skipping intervals
. 1 minute sprinting / skipping @ max effort +90 secs jogging to recover
. Do 5 intervals

OR

Fast Blasts
Choose from:
Running, stationary bike @ low resistance, rope-skipping, burpees, jumping jacks, spotty dog, punching air or bag, step-ups, swimming, squats, lunges, pressups, tricep dips, situps ... or any combination you like.

Choose type of Blast:

4-minute Blast
. 4 mins @ 90% effort

OR "Tabata" = 8 x intervals of 20 secs @ 100% effort + 10 secs recovery @ rest or slow speed
( FreeTimerApp )

OR 2 x20-sec intervals=
. 20-sec @ 100% effort
. 2 mins walk to recover
. 20-sec @ 100% effort

END any HIIT or Fat Blast with a few mins cooldown walk / jog

RESISTANCE Training / LIFTING

Helps retain muscle mass during weight loss and hence to maintain TDEE.
Lift at home / in the gym weights area / in a pump class.

It is best not to train the same muscle groups 2 days in succession, so have rest days, or cardio, or train different muscle groups on different days.
Try to build up to weight training for 30-60 mins twice per week.

Reps = the number of repetitions in a set of lifts
Sets are separated by brief rests
E.g. 3 sets of 12 reps = 36 lifts
Breathing: Inhale before lifting, exhale while lifting. Don't hold your breath.

WARNING
Do not lift massively heavy barbells, more than bodyweight, unless you are really fit with good technique.
Women who have given birth and / or are aged 40+ have a higher risk of pelvic floor / prolapse injuries when lifting heavy than young non-mums.

Press ups
Video

• The best upper body exercise
• Keep attempting one full pressup rather than doing several dozen girlie ones with your knees on the floor
• Once you can do one pressup, you will soon be able to build up to 5, then 10 etc.
• Tip: keep the abs rigid, so strong abs are as important as strong shoulders & arms
• Hand Release Pressups are good to build up strength for full ones
• Also build up via inclined pressups IncPress , see bottom of wiki page
• To increase the number of pushups IncNum

ATG Arse To Grass bodyweight squat

• The best exercise for the large muscle group in bum and thighs
• Basic principle: It is like having a pee on a public loo - get your bum down low and pointing to the rear, but not actually touching the seat

-Lean back on your heels, so that weight is on them, not on your toes

• Bring your arms forward
• Keep your back straight, but angled slightly forward, not vertical
• Squat down as far as you can without knee pain or hunching your back
• Push up from your heels, exhaling.

Pullups

• Very few women can do full ones, but assisted ones build excellent muscle
• Work the same muscles with the much easier Australian pullup / InvertedRow

If you have access to dumbbells / barbells, then for maximum effect, work the large muscle groups:
Squat BentOverRow (press button "female")
BehindNeckPress (press button "female")
DeadLift

To increase Strength
Lift as heavy as you can, low reps, with 1 minute rest between sets e.g. 5 sets x 5 reps each, i.e. totalling 25 lifts

To Build Muscle
Lift lower weight, 3 sets x 8-20 reps, i.e. totalling 24-60 lifts

To Build Endurance
Lift lower (NOT Girlie) weight for 3-5 mins, preferably without pauses

BUM / GLUTES
Squats & lunges are excellent
Also this 2-min bodyweight workout especially for women, targeting the bum:
WorkYourBum

ABS
Choose the exercises & number of reps for your fitness level

The plank
. Start at 2 x 15 secs. Build up to 2 x 45 secs
. Advanced:

1. Use TRX slings, picture 2

Side plank + hip raises
. If you can, keep the side of 1 foot plus 1 forearm on the floor, free arm straight up in the air, picture 3
. Easier - free hand on your hip. Easier still - keep calf & knee on the floor, instead of bent at the knees
. Start at 3 sets of 3. Build up to 3 x 30

Leg raises
. Lie flat on your back, with legs bent to 90 degrees
. Lower the legs one at a time to 1" above the floor (straight leg if you can) then raise again
. Start at 3 sets of 3 each leg. Build up to 3 x 15
. Advanced:

1. Lower both legs at the same time

Situps
. Hands forward to really work abs & avoid pulling the neck
. Alternatively, cross your arms over your chest
. Start at 3 sets of 3. Build up to 3 x 30
. Advanced:

1. Raise legs to 90 degrees & bring them towards you when you situp (double crunch)
2. Legs nearly flat on the floor
3. One leg bent at 90 degrees, the other held straight 1" above the floor
4. Hold a weight disc / dumbbells / barbell above your head

Angled Situps
. Lie on your back and rest one ankle on the opposite knee
. Angled situp so your opposite elbow touches the knee
. Keep the other hand be in the air by your knee, or alternatively supporting your head - do NOT pull on the neck
. Build up to 3 sets of 20 each side
. Advanced:

1. with dumbell
2. Situps with legs rotated 90 degrees to the left, resting on floor. Then repeat set with legs rotated to the right, on floor
3. Lie on the floor, rotate legs 90 degrees to the left. Raise and lower legs like that, keeping back on the floor. Repeat set with legs on other side
4. Keep legs raised & rotated to the left and do situps (double side crunch) Repeat with legs raised & rotated to the right

AVOID OSTEOPOROSIS

To retain bone strength and avoid a painfully disabled old age, start now:
Ideally weight-bearing exercises that load the bone along its length of these types:

Impact exercise E.g. walking, running, jumping, skipping rope, step class, hitting a heavy punch bag

Lifting: squats, press-ups, bench press, overhead press etc

Squats are much better for osteoporosis than lunges, also for knees:
The weight in a squat is transmitted down along the spine, through the hip, and down along the bones of the leg, whereas in a lunge, it is transmitted across the shinbone and puts pressure on the knee joint

Cycling normally does NOT increase bone density, as it does not load bones along their length. Osteo

KETTLEBELLS Kettle
Beginners:
. Two-handed swing
. Sumo Deadlift
. Turkish Getup
. Swing
. Clean and Jerk
. Press

Improve GRIP STRENGTH GripStrength , GripBuild

RUNNERS

. Sprinting improves fitness
. Regular 5 - 10 km runs burn significant fat, especially fasted

Running illustrates the "J or S-curve" effect, where increasing exercise improves health, up to a certain point, after which health worsens e.g. MayoClinic , RiceUni , JMed :

. Running 20 mins improves immune system

. A run of 90+ mins may weaken the immune system for up to 3 days.
With insufficient recovery periods, the damage is cumulative.
Elite runners have immune systems that handle that strain

. Long races 20k+ may cause micro-tears to the heart muscle in some runners, hence a 2-week recovery period is recommended.

CALCULATORS:
Calories Burned for specific exercises: ExerciseCals
Fitness Calculators: 52FastExercise
Estimate fitness age: FitAge
Estimate Vo2Max iTunes App: Vo2APP
Running Calories burned: RunningCals
Running Standards: Age-RelatedRunCalculator
TDEE 24hr activity times & body fat TDEE-Detail

Honey Lifting can often help minor back & neck problems, from sitting too long etc.

Shred isn't compulsory; in fact best to drop it, at least for now, if it puts you off exercising, or makes you feel too stressed.
Some people need time to build up aerobic fitness, or even do better just lifting and then doing slower less intense cardio.

The most important thing about exercise is that you develop a weekly routine that makes you breathe heavily & sweat, that you like enough for it to be sustainable longterm.
You then build up the intensity on at least some days and aim for 4-5 days exercise per week. That can be say lifting alternating with swimming , yoga, cycling.
And you may feel able later to join the gym, with its equipment and trainers.

Do what suits you as an individual, with your unique body, metabolism, psychology, lifestyle, environment etc

I agree honeybadger I find I can do lots of sets of an exercise as long as I get a break. Still coughing and sniffing so haven't been able to run. Put in a lot of work with weights and lunges, squats and planks this morning whilst watching Murray lose.

Some pics to show strength exercises plus a rather nice young man

hope you feel better soon lovemyway! me and ds seem to battling with a bug that's trying to get us at the minute. both a bit snotty and grotty but it's not fully taking hold itms. hoping it doesn't as i already had two nasties whilst in uk followed by horrible earache for a while due to congestion then a sinus infection when i got back. not sure if giving up smoking has contributed to that with my respitatory system maybe being out of kilter.

thanks for pics Choc - i have been doing tricep dips wrong - thought my legs had to be straight.

i forced myself to do the shred. i do loathe it BUT i do think it is a good time economic way to get a lot of workout done. i can't imagine having the discipline to make myself get and stay that out of breath and sweaty independently itms. think i'm going to stick to aim to do it twice a week.

i did it today as tomorrow will be an enforced rest day as i have to go for my visa run so sitting in a taxi and waiting around in a government building for much of the day. i might get an extended fast out of it though.

will do some plank work later (i like that i can feel the side planks with hip lifts i did yesterday have impacted on different muscles that i haven't felt for a while).

now that i've done it i'm feeling surprisingly energised and am half tempted to go on a bit of a run/walk/run sort of mission on the desert wasteland near me seeing as i'm already sweaty and gross. might as well get my money's worth out of facing a tepid low pressure shower dare say i will talk myself out of it though unless i literally get up and do it right now. hmmm.... decisions.

Honey the tricep dip pic is for beginners - you are obviously more advanced than you let on !
Yes, as people get stronger, they should extend the legs to increase the loading on triceps.
Just make sure your body really dips down, so your triceps are working

ha! you wouldn't say that if you saw me flopping to the floor at the end of one badly executed press up big choc.

Honey - out of my 3 sons, two of them are from a "different specie" they are madly athletic - the definition of their muscles all over the body is outrageous (especially when they were toddlers, imagine a slim bodybuilder with a toddler head!!)
It is all down to my husband. Clearly, there is some kind of DNA lottery and they hit the jackpot. whatever my middle son do (too young to care yet) he will never, ever, reach that level of strength and fitness. My little one (2.5yo) has legs made of steel already, it is disturbing. So yes, some people are different, don't beat yourself up!

Coo coo - I have only lost weight when I was running to prepare for a marathon and running about 30/40k a week. I usually gain if I run 5k regularly (which is the only thing I can manage now, post kids).

Clearly, I am much more on the flabby side.... and I am after some recommendations: what HIIT exercise could I do if my pelvic floor isn't so great and spinning gives me piles (sorry!)?

glad you mentioned the pelvic floor tostaky - i was wondering whether to mention that it might be good to add a good resource about it to the OP given so many women have problems there and it can be an obstacle. also i was reading one article that said actually it is really, really important to address as it means the whole system of the core is breaking down or some such.

i don't know if this is just me and if it will continue to improve but i do tend to find it improves as i continue - so for example i remember deciding to do 20mins a day on my sons trampoline a few years back as i'd read how good for your whole system it is. initially, sorry, i was literally flooded and shocked as to where the hell it was all coming from even given i had what i thought was an empty bladder. as time went on and i continued (using pads and accepting trousers would go straight in a hot wash) it improved. likewise i noticed when i did the shred with all the damned jumping jacks and skipping rope stuff i had less leakage than i had last week. i would say still do it at home and just use pads etc - also apparently putting in a tampon for exercise helps but i haven't tried that. i'm not a big fan of kegels because i've read they can cause more harm than good by shortening and stressing muscles even more but i found some good stuff online about engaging those muscles whilst in deep squat positions. if i can find the better articles i found i will post them.

yes to different genetics/bodytypes. i was thinking just yesterday that even when i worked as a diving instructor back in my early 20's and i was loading and unloading taxis with tanks, weight belts, equipment crates etc 3 or 4 times a day i didn't really become muscly or more defined. i was slim and fit and strong certainly but others doign the same work levels definitely gained more definition and clear muscle development than me.

yesterday was my rest day from all strength work - just some cycling in the afternoon. last night i suddenly went from a bit sniffly to feel totally rotten, full of cold and feverish. i'm not sure whether you should rest when ill or carry on. i've done my counter press ups and can no doubt manage a few sets up tricep dips and some squat lifts and planks spread out well through the day but doubt i'm going to be up for much more than that. also not sure whether to push myself to wait the full time to break my fast or go with my body when it wants to eat?

Hi all, I'm tentatively joining this thread too as the time has come for me to increase (begin!) my exercise.

I am in the middle of a major fat shed, a year ago my BMI was 40 and now it's almost down to 30. I was very unfit and completely sedentary, and if I tried to move I would get aches and pains (ankle, hip, lower back...). Nowadays, I walk 3-5 km Mon-Fri, and have started some basic HIIT - I did a Tabata circuit with an 8kg kettlebell yesterday. I have tried to do a JM Shred, but failed on the first pressup - I can do a 20 -25s plank, but cannot lower myself down, my shoulders and collarbone hurt. I also tried a 5x5 stronglifts type of thing with 3kg dumbbells (LOL) and managed about 3 sets instead of 5.

I am still quite unfit, and now a bit saggy (and still have a bulging belly - visceral fat, it is going down and I'm doing LC with 5:2 which helps), and I don't really want to join a gym, at least not yet. I have some dumbbells, some kettlebells and a stationary bike at home, and on the positive side I tend to put muscle on easily (tall, broad shouldered, large strong frame).

So, my plan for the next month or so is the following:
Continue walking to work daily
Do 1 kettlebell and one stationary bike HIIT weekly (different days), plus 3 planks with each
3 days of 5x5 lifts with dumbbells
Weekends mostly rest or a modest hike

How does this sound? I would welcome any advice, criticism or encouragement! (Sorry for the novel!)

ok obviously no expert but do any of those days exercise plans actually make you sweat and get out of breath for a sustained period?

ps. you don't have to quit shred because you can't do proper press ups - though believe me i can totally understand wanting to quit you could do the knee ones or if that's too much do them against a wall.

welcome to the thread by the way and well done on your shrinking bmi

Honey For pelvic floor, the best exercise for most of us is CLENCH, which B&W reminds us every now and again < sing out again, that man ! >

Tostaky, CooCoo Weight loss is 80-90% dependent on food & drink, even for regular exercisers. These 2 picture help understand why:
Exercise only helps lose weight if you don't eat back the calories.

HIIT often reduces appetite for hours, which is why I recommend it, for those who can.

Many people find that steady state medium intensity cardio, e.g. running or swimming, makes them hungry.
So they eat more than they burn and may even increase weight.

Women are rarely able to gain more than ¼ lb muscle per week even when lifting, so any more than that is either fat, or water that has been temporarily retained for muscle repair.
A man usually can't gain more than ½ lb muscle per week (assuming he doesn't take steroids or hormones)

Welcome, vibrantella

• A daily walk is a excellent habit, especially outside in daylight.
  At weekends, don't push yourself to hike unless you really fancy it. A 20 minute walk Sat & Sun may be better than a monthly hike.

• The kettlebell and bike HIIT look good.
  HIIT can increase fitness rapidly and can also improve insulin metabolism, which helps burn belly fat.
  Aim to build up to 45 minute really tough HIIT sessions - long enough to burn a lot of cal, short enough to allow intensity.

• However, I suggest for your abs:
  swap the static planks on one of those 2 HIIT days for sets of situps and leg raises. Work your way up to 3 sets of 10 each.

• Also, on the kettlebell day, add some inclined pressups, hands against a wall or on a bed. It'll build your strength.
  The key to pressups is to keep the abs rigid, so the body is in a straight line from heels to shoulders. Don't stick your bum in the air - it's rude

• Stronglifts 5×5 (to inform other pp) uses 5 uses compound lifts:
  Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift, Overhead Press, Barbell Row.
  You do 3 x 45 minute workouts per week, always squats plus 2 of the other lifts.
  I expect you have the spreadsheets what to do & when.

Hi BC!

It's true, I try and do 20 minutes clenching every day. I soon know if I've neglected this - when I have to get up to the loo in the middle of the night. Generally I can sleep 8/9 hours without disturbance.

Started doing weighted press ups over the last couple of days - with a backpack weighing 8kg.

So tonight I did 200 in sets of 25 with first 2, then 3 minutes recovery.

Earlier, I wanted to see how many I can manage in one minute. Before Xmas I did 40, today I did 50 - 47 straight off, two secs rest then 3 more inside 60 seconds.

When I can do 60 weighted press ups in one minute - that's when I'll challenge my DS!

Tostaky With your dodgy pelvic floor and piles, I suggest you try HIIT or Tabata with these exercises:

Running, swimming, burpees, punching air or punchbag, step-ups, squats, lunges, pressups, tricep dips, situps ... or any combination you like.

Honey I've always envied the long-limbed elegant ectomorph runners like our brilliant Anglaise

However, I am a mesomorph, so I have a lot of hard muscle and I can lift heavy - 100 reps calf lifts @ 141 kg (311 lb) - as well as the endurance for 500 pressups.
BUT mesomorphs tend to put on fat unless they also watch their intake, so being 5'3" and the big 6-Oh coming up this summer, I have learned to be very mindful. And so thankful for IF.

Meno changes how the bod behaves, so I strongly advise every woman to get down to goal weight before then.

That's great progress with the weighted pressups, B&W
I may do weighted sets one day as a variation, with a weight plate.
Do you find the weight stays stable on your back, no sliding off to one side suddenly ? I don't fancy a tight belt around chest or tum, obviously.

You must tell us when you issue the challenge, or the result if it's a spontaneous contest. He'll be so surprised !
Do us proud !

I've got my 6kg kb in the middle of my backpack, wedged in with outdoor clothing (plus a couple of CDs, just to make the weight exactly 8kg). Once I've got the backpack on, it stays in one place.

TBH, I'd like the weight to be a couple of inches higher up my back, but it's not really a concern.

Thank you Honey and BigChoc, I am grateful for your input, but my life has been disrupted in the last few days by having to take a sad decision to put my 13 yo cat to sleep which happened this morning. At least not being able to eat helps with the fasting! I will comment more on this thread later.

just been looking at body types and endless pics (ecto, endo and meso) and i'm really not sure which i am. i actually have quite broad shoulders and i don't have the tiny bone structure that the pics show for ectomorphs - and i'm not skinny like they apparently are and i don't find it difficult to put on weight if i overeat sustainedly.

i am long limbed and 5'7 and def not inclined to pear shape that endomorphs are apparently typified by though and traditionally haven't found it difficult to lose weight when i try or when i don't try as such but my climate and lifestyle changes.

can't figure it out.

x posted - so sorry about your cat vibratella. take care.

I'm so sorry about your cat, Vibrantella
A furry friend seems to leave little paw prints in your heart.

Honey Most people are an amalgam of body types. just those of us who are predominantly one type can find it helpful to be aware of a set of characteristics and what may be helpful wrt exercise & nutrition.

Moe useful: keep an eye on your waist, which is an indicator of visceral fat, far more problematic than subcutaneous (unser the skin)

As we age, particularly around peri or meno, women tend to become more insulin resistant, which is why the waist may thicken and it becomes significantly more difficult to lose / maintain than it used to.
I found IF was brilliant for this - it can often help correct metabolic / hormonal issues.

And of course, as we age our TDEE drops off quite a bit, partly due to loss of muscle mass
This is where exercise can help.
You might be interested in the link "Bending the Aging Curve" towards the top of the OP here.

Thanks for the info, B&W

i haven't managed to find a tape measure here so can't do measurements but i remember when 5:2'ing before i was quite 'lucky' when it came to the waist to height ratio thing. i do put weight on on my tummy and breasts but still have a waist. my sister, for example, would be an endomorph as were all of the women in my mother's side of the family. none had waists but a sort of barrel shape and i remember even when my sister lost a ton of weight with stupid bloody Lighter Life (obviously gained it straight back) she was still that barrel shape and the fat that remained was sort of solid and barrel-like around her middle (including back).

i take more after my dad with the long limbs and height and having 'shape'. if i put on fat it will 'hang' on the front of my tummy itms rather than spread around it in that barrel effect and it is definitely loose. definitely NOT attractive but i think healthier according to the visceral/subcutaneous business?

i really, really want to get to my ideal weight and learn to maintain this year and to significantly improve the percentage of muscle. i have a real sense that i need to do this now before i get to menopause.

I just posted calculators on the main thread for ideal weight & frame size.
I agree 100% about sorting weight before meno.

And VERY important, then proceeding to a maintenance plan, so it becomes an easy habit.
"Diets don't work" applies only to people keep jumping on & off.
I keep nagging reminding everyone:

If you return to your old WOE, then you return to your old weight !

So many women, especially exercisers, think they can get away with mainlining junk & booze because they don't put on weight. They can suddenly pile on stones once meno gets under way.

btw, did you see that thread by the obese poster with sugar addiction who said she didn't care about health, just wanted to lose for vanity.
Alarming how many women regard health as unimportant