5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome Snowie! The first post in this thread has all the information but yes, 500 calories for women and 600 for men. Good luck for your fast day!

carrot we were TTC for a year when I started 5:2. I had investigations to rule out PCOS and blood tests but everything normal. I lost 13 pounds in 12 weeks of 5:2 and only stopped because I discovered I was pregnant.

Welcome, Snowy
Yes, 500 on FDs and use the TDEE calculator in the OP as a rough guide for NFDs. The OP has all you need to know.

Ask whatever you want, moo
HIIT is especially good at reducing visceral fat & waist measurement, so if you like running, I recommend adding some sprint intervals. Several runners on the exercise thread and Anglaise in particular runs brilliant races at several distances, so plenty of practical advice. I've posted calculators for runners.
See the Fast Fitness blasts too, for quick boosts within just a few minutes

Morning! Well, I joined this thread before Christmas for motivation, but really failed to get to grips with this WOE then...but tried again in February and this time it's stuck well. Although I seem to be losing at a slower rate than some on this thread, I find it really doesn't bother me (which it did when I tried WW etc, very disheartening). I know I am going at a sustainable pace for me and my lifestyle, and this morning I have just lost my first full stone, amazing! 1 down, 4 more to go!!
Even more amazing, a full 2 inches off my waist - a great result. I do FD back to back on Monday/Tuesday of each week, which really seems to work for me (busiest days at work etc). Being an utter carb-addict, I am surprised at how easily I have just stopped having them on Mon/Tue. Love it, and love this thread!

Thanks bigchoc, I'll have a read when I have time. And others for sharing.

I did have to leave this thread when I got pg. unfortunately that didn't last very long.

I think I'll call it a week with just one FD this week as it's so close to potential BFP. I'll try to eat healthier though for the rest of the time (yesterday was a massive fail on that front but this morning started with porridge and I'll try to eat a healthy lunch and dinner).

Thanks big choc.
On a positive note, I'd ordered some size 14 jeggings from M&S as my standard 16s have been falling down all the time and the 14s are loose. A 12 would be too small, but it was amazing to pull them on and not have to breathe in as I was expecting!
I'll keep them for now, they weren't expensive so they will do until I can get into a 12.

Off out for a day on the southbank now so but on course for a 16:8. We will see. I'm trying not to beat myself up this week. I grew up watching my mum diet and worry about food and it certainly hasn't helped my relationship with food, so I'm keen for the DC to see me eat healthily, but not obsess over things.

Well done on your SV and NSV, Bexie
You've also learnt you can cut right down on carbs for a couple of days. You are capable of so much more than you thought
Losing a stone and those inches will improve health markers and shape.
Great attitude towards sustainable weight loss: just lose at the rate that suits your individual body and lifestyle.
This is a WOL, not a race

moo Even though you were shocked at your waist, needing smaller jeggings really sounds like you have already lost inches on 5:2
So, you are on your way

I need some encouragement to go on ... I'm good on FD but I often overeat on NFD .. I'm busy with kids and work and don't have time to exercise .. I'm also an emotional eater and very fond of sweet stuff.. So I feel I may waste the good job done until now... I really would like it to become an healthier WOL. .. any advice? Thanks!

Hi I'm just finished first day of fasting & am very hungry ! Spent all day massively bloated as well could have been from having tea on empty stomach am really looking forward to tomorrow :)

My FD will be tomorrow. I need to plan what to eat (I think an evening omelette with veggies on the side would be nicest) and ask my husband to hide the chocolates.

Can anyone recommend any brain bleach which might stop me from remembering the huge vat of triple chocolate icecream in the freezer tomorrow?

Anyone good at baking or have any good suggestions..

I have 1 milk chocolate and 1 dark chocolate Easter egg but I fancy baking something, dare I say healthy or low cal as possible?

Mozzarella - maybe you need to try a week or so 'clean eating' avoiding sugar. Might help reset your palate and also then you'd know that you can actually survive perfectly well without it.

Exercise doesn't have to take long or be complicated- short intense bursts are more effective than long slogs.

I did some tabatas again this morning - each set is 4 mins and I'm having a 4 min break between sets during which I loaded the dishwasher and cleaned the sink etc. It's very time effective doing this at home!

Probably went a bit over on my FD today as DH had planned to cook but then had to do something else. So I resorted to delving in freezer for a ready meal - bgty curry, 400 cals.

[I've been trying to post this since yesterday - but events conspired against me!]

For a sugar hit – and we all need them on occasion – try stewing some apricots. I use the unsulphured ones from my local HFS. They’re a bit expensive, but so good!

After lunch today I spent 20 minutes deciding whether or not to have something sweet - I was only saved from diving into some chocolate when I remembered I had some stewed apricots in the fridge. 3 of those and I was safe.

And I’ve taken to having my toothbrush handy. A quick whizz round after eating something sweet might save my two back teeth which, if I were to lose them, would mean the dreaded dentures!

I’ve had a nagging cough and an incipient sore throat for a week or so, now. I’m still exercising, but only at about ¾ intensity – just keeping things ticking over as it were,

But I'm feeling OK, and I still fasted today – a 24hr LOF, followed by a 244 calorie meal, comprising a 102 cal chilli-flavoured veg stew, plus 142 cals of mashed potatoes.

At this stage I decided I needed a pud, so I had a small bowl of fruit with soya cream - 5 stewed d/apricots (99cals) + ½ small banana (28cals) + 25g soya cream. 175 calories altogether, making a total for the day of 419.

And that was it, I thought, until my wife reminded me that her sister was coming tomorrow – and she was a great fan of my chocolate cake. So, I’ve just made one – which I’ve no intention of touching.

However, when you turn a cake out of a silicon cake former, there remains a lining of crumbs round the sides - 30g of them on this occasion, which I reckon is 105 cals. And very nice they were, too!

I fancy baking something

hevs, what about pain au chocolat? Great fun to make with children.

Or, if you want to be a bit healthier, here's a chocolate and banana recipe. Just use bits of the Easter eggs instead of chocolate spread.

What scales does everyone use to weigh themselves? I'm tearing my hair out here. Bought some new ones that generally weigh me as slightly lighter than my old ones but they're massively inconsistent :( this morning, in the space of two minutes, I've allegedly weighed anywhere between 88.2kg and 91.7kg, depending on the angle of my feet / whether I'm holding my breath / the alignment of the moon at any given second I was trying to get an average but they're so frikkin random. I just want consistency damn it!

Weigh-in day -first after getting back from holiday, and all I can say is that it's not as bad as it could have been - 1lb gain.
Well probably more than 1lb but I've got back on the wagon and done two fasts this week, so hopefully back to winning (losing!) ways next week

Can I join you? I started this week and have my first two fast days completed. So far so good. I am uncertain of my weight but suspect it us around 85kgs and would like to get to 75kg as my first target and to fit comfortably into size 14 jeans and reduce my adipose fat. I have found the FDs surprisingly easy so far and intervening days I have been more conscious of what I have been putting in my mouth. I started using MFP and it is very useful. I have also started Jillian Michaels Shred and walk about 5kms daily.

Further to my last post - how do I stop this from completely disheartening me? After playing around with various locations/floor surfaces in the house its not consistently saying 91.3kg. So I haven't made it under 200lbs OR 14st like I thought I had. Its just so frustrating and feels like I've been kidding myself and haven't actually done well at all.

*now consistently saying

Welome, calfon Sounds like a good start

Since you mfp, I'd suggest you calculate TDEE for both 75kg and 85 kg. If you aim mostly for the 75kg TDEE, you'll reach that first goal more quickly.

Well done on a successful 1st FD, Snowie

igivein Most folk will put on a few lb on holiday, but no problem when you get straight back to 5:2.

hevs If you've got almond flour, see Recipes for a healthy way to use that dark choc egg: vegan GF choc cookies. You can substitute another oil if you don't have coconut oil.

Squiggle Weight loss, especially fat loss around the middle, will make a visible difference to your shape and clothes fit, as well as the hidden health benefits. That is what your aim.
You want to lose several stone, so don‘t get hung up a few lb variation.
Monitor your waist and hips (say every 2 weeks) as an additional check.

I see very little variation on my scales, but I found % body fat varies wildly, so I ignore that reading.

Scales Variation

1. Digital vs. mechanical, expensive vs. cheapest scale.
   Digital are much more exact because they don't have a spring that will stretch over time, or be affected by daily temperature variation. Secondhand or v cheap new scales may be defective

2. Digital scales:
   . After you switch on, allow 5 seconds for it to calibrate before you step on. When you step off, allow another 5 secs before you step on again (if you must). Otherwise readings may be false
   . Check the batteries / replace with new. Batteries with less than 50% power may give false readings - someone on another forum experimented.

3. Place your feet consistently in a similar position, stand up straight and don’t lean to one side or front / back. Anyone who shifts body and feet position can make the numbers change, so don't do that. You are not playing see-saw.

4. Place the scales on a level floor, because even a slightly uneven surface can cause variations of up to 4lb. Check by hand (not when you are standing on them) if you can rock them slightly – if they rock, find a level surface where they don’t.

5. The floor surface must be hard, no rugs, carpets or padding. Otherwise, the weight is slightly reduced by the deformation of the floor covering, hence misleading.

And of course reduce variation from your own body, ideally weighing completely naked, first thing in the morning, after loo dumps, but before eating or drinking, even a glass of water.

FD here today now that AF has finally decided to leave me. Going very well - had the last of my pre-bought porridge pots (this one with mixed seeds) for lunch 150cal, and have a 350cal Thai chicken salady ready meal for when I get home. So that's my 500 cals.

As usual though I will struggle when having my cup of tea at about 9pm as I'm used to having something to nibble with it. Maybe I can stretch to some carrot sticks without going too far over my 500 allowance.

My DH (a fellow scientist) believes in measuring things properly, so he researched scales quite carefully when the last ones died. The set he bought to be very consistent; they're Seca digital ones, which are nice and level standing on top of a solid board (specially bought for the purpose!) in the bedroom.

Personally I always weigh after 2 mugs of tea - I need that to get me going in the morning - but it's consistent input.

Squiggle you could always forget your scales at home and weigh regularly at a place with a scale (eg. Boots). Obviously you will need to keep your clothes on I used to do this in my last home as my scales read differently wherever I put them. The bonus of this is you get a print out so you have a record of your weight loss.

LSV for me today. Saw friends at a park and the only places to eat were fast food restaurants. We all got the same meal but I shared mine with the DC so we had a third each. It was actually enough for us all. Felt a bit smug (inside) afterwards!!