5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Welcome back, igivein Sounds a lovely holiday and I'm sure the break did you good.

Well done everybody who is fasting today after their holidays.
You are getting right back on track, so you'll soon start losing again.

MrsNutella 1lb loss over Easter is an excellent result. Breaking even is good.
With a bad cold, don't fast if you don't feel like it. BUT no junk or alcohol either
< it's like DCs and staying home / going to school, if you're well enough to enjoy x,y,z .... >
Don't force yourself to eat either, just drink plenty of water and eat nutritious food within TDEE (you'll burn less because you are lowering activity level)

vvv, zalen Totm feeding frenzies are a common problem for women in all WOEs. Many women eat 1000s of extra cals in the week before or during period, which can even cancel out 3 weeks' good work.

totm
Totm hormones lower the levels of insulin and serotonin ( the feel-good neurotransmitter)
Women then crave carbs and sugar to raise these levels. However, you need to act in a controlled way, to avoid worsening PMT and weight gain.

So, around totm:

. Increase protein
. Eat complex carbs - quinoa, porridge, brown rice - and beans instead of junk carbs
. Eat fruit, nuts, seeds, avocado instead of choc, sweets, cake, biscuits ...
. The above measures will also increase magnesium levels, typically lower at totm
. Try to cut out alcohol. Trust me, it may initially feel good, but it does worsen symptoms & weight gain
. Exercise and keep moving, especially take a brisk walk in the sun

Thanks BigChoc, one thing I don't have to worry about is alcohol. I generally drink once, maybe twice a year .

Since trying graze boxes I've discovered that I actually like nuts and seeds. Before I always thought I hated them. Unfortunately I just as easily eat my a thousand or so calories in them as I could before in chocolate, cake and biscuits.

Still, I recognise the problem so I'm going to try to take control. I really wanted a kit-kat when I came back from lunch but I went to the vending machine and got a can of diet coke instead. I'm not sure it's much better but it certainly makes me feel fuller and should distract me for a while.

Also it'll be back to class tonight after the Easter break, and up to 5 classes a week now from 4 before as with my new belt I now qualify for the black belt preparation classes on Saturdays .

Do you all think that all calories are made equal, so to speak?

I was reading the Deliciously Ella book and she says when you eat the right things (i.e. plant based whole foods only), you don't have to count calories. She also says she sometimes eats a jar of nut butter with a spoon!!! It makes sense to me that it's better to have an avocado than a chocolate bar in terms of nutrition but surely eating more than your body will need and use is still too much and going to lead to weight gain?

I'm no expert stripytees but I agree with you. Over-doing the calories in healthy food will lead to weight gain just as it does with chocolate etc. I think maybe the point is that it's harder to eat such massive numbers of calories in healthy foods than it is in junk.

Take my favourite problem food, a 2 finger kit-kat is 107 calories, compare that with these images of 100 calories of various foods and you'll feel fuller for longer on the good stuff.

A calorie is a calorie if you put it in a calorimeter and burn it. Humans are a bit more complicated! The body can use proteins for repair etc, but carbs are pretty much only usable as energy sources. Then as well there's the question of fibre and how much of the food we actually digest.

stripy Calories do affect your body differently, e.g. can nudge hormones more in the direction of fat burning or fat storage.
Also, junk leads to unstable blood sugar, so you are more likely to binge than on avocados.

BUT unless you have a major intolerance for a particular food, the calorie balance is what is dominant for weight, the type of calories are secondary or tertiary factors.
Studies showed that healthy food had at most a 10% calorie advantage over junk, e.g. someone at TDEE 2000 could eat at 200 cals more per day on Mediteranean food than on the Twinkies diet.

Some folk keep spouting about eating all you want.
Ok, they are the lucky SMALL minority who can self-regulate (and usually they are below BMI 25)
Most of us can't self-regulate, unless we keep a rough eye on total intake.

I spoon almond butter from the jar, but I have to decide in advance how many spoonfuls. Otherwise, I poke my head back out of an empty jar with an extra 1800 cals, which stay on my bod until I take action to get rid.

People have gained 15 lb in a month by "throwing away the scales and just eating healthy food"

You are VERY unlikely to gain weight from unlimited veg (avocado is a fruit) - but only if they are naked. If you fry them or pour on a creamy sauce, add rice or pasta, some fish / meat / nuts ..... then calories mount up rapidly.

Evening. FD over but far harder than previously. I guess that's it's because I've been eating more crap over the weekend so I'm craving it more. I was going to try back to back fasting tomorrow as I can't work out when else I may be able to fast but I'm not sure I'll be able to.
Perhaps a mini FDS tomorrow and one on Friday??

TOTM here, too. I didn't manage to eat to TDEE today (exceeded by 20%) but kept up the exercise.

Thanks for the tips, BigChoc. Can you get magnesium supplements and are they effective? I'm not a fan of nuts or seeds or avocado.

Zalen, thanks for that 100 calorie graphic. I'm actually horrified at how calorific dates and prunes are. I LOVE them and can easily scoff a bagful... even the threat of getting the runs doesnt really deter me. Blimmin' HECK, I must have been eating 500 calories' worth at a time!

V interested to read about the totm info.... I was caught unawares by AF this month, thought I had put on 1kg despite hard work, now realise that may have been water retention.

I also suffer horrendously from PMT- and I wonder if tracking my cycle and being especially careful to get those missing nutrients that I could make things better. Being honest I should have realised AF was making an early appearance as I had a right meltdown with DH 2 days before. I thought he'd just been an arse. Turns out it might have been me being unreasonable

Ended up doing back-to-back FD today, by accident. I never eat bfast but I made a packed lunch for DC1 and myself and made a plan to take him for a special day out whilst DC2 was at the childminders. Frustratingly he wanted to carry the lunch then promptly left it at home when he put it down to put on his shoes. I was loathed to buy two overpriced lunches in a tourist attraction so I bought him the kiddie pre-packed lunch and munched on the carrot sticks included. Have felt fine although v slightly lightheaded when standing in the sunshine on the train platform but it soon passed. I may even try my third FD tomorrow as the end of the week will be a bit busier for me. Any thoughts on three FDs in a row?

I realised last month that the week before totm I can't stop eating. I just have to try and limit what I have in the kitchen!

I officially finish the thirty day shred tomorrow, but I haven't done ten days on L3 so I'll keep going until I've done that.

Weight loss has been poor - completely my fault so I gave myself a stern talking to this morning when I realised if I had stopped arsing around I'd be much lighter by now. Anyway, I'm still much much lighter than this time last year so can see summer approach with confidence.

elsa, I dunno. My gutreaction is that it's possibly not a good idea, heading into VLC diet territory. Maybe after two fast days you need to think about replenishing your body with lovely fresh nutrient-filled things (fatty fish, milk, bananas, whatever) for health.

Disclaimer: I know nothing. Nothing.

Trenzalor, go you! Could I recommend Jillian's Killer Buns and Thighs or her Banish Fat, Boost Metabolism, or any number of others, for when you've finished Shred? That woman really knows how to whip you into shape. I luffs her.

Place marking

Good point MildlyA, I may save it then for Sunday as DH will be away for work and I find it ok when I am busy (which I undoubtedly will be, on my own with two DCs under 5).

Elsa Varady recommends 3 FDs in a row to break a plateau on ADF - I thought it sounded horrible ! - but she certainly knows her science.
I don't think it's a good idea, personally, especially if you felt a bit light-headed in the sun.

mildly It's always best to get minerals & vitamins from food if poss, rather than supplements. If you don't like nuts, seeds or avocado, then other veggie foods high in mg: dark leafy greens, beans, yogurt, bananas, dried fruit.
Do make sure you have enough beans & legumes for protein - this will also help you feel full. Can you eat eggs ?

zalen If you like a graze box, I strongly recommend it be full of veg, not nuts & seeds. Or measure out & cal count nuts and seeds for the day; you could allocate say 200-300 cals, probably 30g.

Calorie Bombs
Dried Fruit is very calorific by weight, about the same as meat, but you can easily eat far more of it than meat and you'll be hungry sooner.
Nuts are healthy, but also best in small amounts.
See table for both:

Healthy Vegan Smoothy for totm Cravings
I was ravenous just now after my 90 mins boxing class, so I created this lovely vegan smoothie - low cal but high in iron, magnesium, vitamin C

Just nuke all together in your smoothie-maker:

. 200 ml unsweetened almond milk
. 100g strawberries
. 2 handfuls spinach leaves
. half teasp cinammon
. half teasp mint
. stevia to taste (quarter teasp for me)
. optionally ice cubes

Thanks again for the useful info,BigChoc! I just Googled "magnesium-rich foods" and was pleased to see dark leafy greens, nuts, seeds, fish, beans, whole grains, avocados, yogurt, bananas, dried fruit, dark chocolate and more come up! I must be made of magnesium already.

For dark, I rate Lindt 90% Cocoa Mild Excellence as a super-food. Satisfying, so nobody ever binges on it.

Hi everyone. I had a rather decedent easter with some lovely meals but need to ensure I stay on the wagon this week. Had a good FD yesterday at under 500 call so just need to keep it up. Had a NSV at Boot Camp at the weekend where I could do shuttle runs at a much better speed and I felt a lot less wobbly as I did my burpees!
That graph about nuts and seeds has really made me reconsider buying them.
Good luck everybody fasting today, I have always found a walk at lunch has helped on FD to take your mind off food and it is a bit nicer when the sun is shining.

Hi positivity Well done on your Boot Camp NSV.
Nuts and seeds are good healthy food, but calorie-dense, so don't treat them like veg. Just portion them in advance, because they are very moreish too.