5:2 Thread number 51: Whoever said "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" obviously never tasted ice cream or chocolate ! 5:2 is for those who enjoy good food and don't want to diet every damn day

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced on BBC Horizon on August 2012:
Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means somewhere around the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

For most folk, 5:2 results in a weekly 3,000 calorie deficit, so averages 1 lb loss. However, some folk may lose much more quickly / slowly, or in fits & starts.
Initial weight loss may be much quicker, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose.

When you are within a healthy BMI range and just want to trim a few more lb, progress may be much slower and you may need to monitor carefully that you don't average above TDEE on non-fast days.

Acronyms & Calculators:

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight normally needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men) or 1000 cals for BF
If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful website or app to track food & drink caloriesi

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day. TDEE is calculated from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this over the week's NFDs.

To speed up your weight loss and to train yourself how to eat on maintenance,
optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight,
but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that to maintain our new healthy weight longterm requires a permanent change in how we eat.

How to Start

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator above as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

FAQs / Tips:

• WATER: Start each day with a pint of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, just count any milk / sugar calories on FDs.
• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice.

Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Many prefer to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs; optionally, reduce to 700 cals gradually. You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar and junk food. A few treats per week are good though!

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back exercise calories. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF. If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals

• Do NOT fast: if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, have past or present EDs, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads
Browse previous 5:2 threads in the fasting section

Tips and Links : breadandwine’s thread collects practical tips and info we have gained over all the 5:2 threads. It is especially useful for newbies.

Inspirational: eatriskier’s Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.
Read to boost your motivation.
Add your own when you have lost weight too

Recipes: frenchfancy has collected delicious FD recipes from all the threads.
Post your own here too.

Exercise: bigchocfrenzy has a Thread for advice & support on combining 5:2 with a healthy exercise regime.
The OP explains the science behind fasting, exercise & health and has many calculators.

Maintaining: talkinpeace has a Thread for those who have successfully lost weight on 5:2/IF and are now maintaining.
Some of those sharing experiences have been maintaining for 2 years, which shows 5:2 is sustainable longterm.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting
==================

BBC article on the Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

A science Study specifically addressed the effect of this diet on obese men & women, wrt health and weight loss:

"... After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant."
i.e. almost all the weight lost was fat, not muscle, which is unusually good for a diet.

It also describes improved blood values:
"Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%)."

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson showed:
. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Some of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease
Also this ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLomgo , and a LongoInterview

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
This has created a wealth of very valuable practical knowledge to help us all.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

I'm also going out for a meal tomorrow night and this is the first time I've eaten out in 5:2 not sure how to approach this. Should I take advantage and go all out or be sensible?!?

Great if you feel slimmer, MrsNutella Do your clothes feel looser ?
You could measure your waist & hips every couple of weeks.

hevs I'd go for choosing delicious food, with extra veg and then enjoying every mouthful. No need to deny yourself your favourites, but don't cram it down either.
Have a big glass of water, even if you have wine too.

When you are no longer hungry, stop eating

Bigchoc my regular jeans do feel a bit looser, all around the belly, bum and thigh actually. I think that's also due to the increase in fluids I'm drinking though. Either way, it's all positive!

Before the DCS I did WW and that was a super slow loss that started well but plateaued for months. I'm hoping this works better because so far, I really am enjoying it.
Two fast days down and I can see why so many people talk about doing this for life. It is very flexible, portable and straightforward.
If anyone is lurking like I was for a while, I think it is really worth giving this a go!

And thank you so much for the support! It means a lot to me that there is a place I can come back to. You've all inspired me to take part and keep going.

But after all the positives, last night was supposed to be a run night but I didn't because I could feel a cold coming on. Today DH, DD and I are all sniffling and coughing with the cold DSL has kindly passed on

At my mothers house for the weekend, and her scales say I'm a stone lighter than mine do and my sister swears they're accurate as she weighs the same everywhere so I think I may actually be more like 85kg! Which is about a stone lighter than I thought! Still have loads to go but its a good starting point... Going to get some new scales for home today and just go by those instead. Still have loads to lose as I'm so short but at least I don't feel like I'm fighting to break the 200lb mark anymore... Which is somewhat motivating

Happy Easter for tomorrow everyone!

Hi, hope you don't mind if I join you. I lost about 5 stones with WW a few years but a really stressful situation with sick parents, redundancy and various other things sent me back to comfort eating. I have to do something immediately as I have a UTI and when we dipped my urine at home noticed a small amount of sugar in my blood. DH is T1 diabetic so we took my blood sugar and it was higher than it should be and I was shocked at this morning's fasting level.

I'm lucky to have a Friend who is a Diabetes Nurse and apparently the UTI can increase blood sugar levels so there is a chance I am not yet Diabetic but probably very close, big wake up call. Another friend has been doing IF for a fair bit and I have been tempted before but have Gallbladder issues so have been wary of trying.

However I am giving it a go and today is my first FD, I am hoping to end up at 550 cals. Not the easiest first day with it being Easter and children around eating but I am hanging in there.

Can I ask whether coffee/tea with milk and sugar counts as breaking a fast when doing 16:8?
I'm skipping breakfast on NFDs but drink coffee first thing, does this count?

Welcome SugarPlum!

MrsWhiskers I would consider that the sugar does. Possibly the milk too.

Welcome SugarPlumTree I get through the FD by thinking I can have all that tomorrow (chocolate, wine whatever it is I am coveting).

Good luck for your first fast day.

Welcome, SugarPlum Good luck on your 1st FD

MrsWhiskers Have your coffee if that's how like to start the day - experience has shown that it is better to accept minor things that makes the FD easier.
Just include any cals for milk & sugar within your 500 total.
Anyway, you are probably still fasting, because up to 50 cals total within your 16 hour fasting window does NOT significantly affect your insulin levels.

mrswhiskers
I drink tea with milk - no sugar - constantly on fast days.
What I don't do is have anything solid

hmm my 2 coffees come to more than 50 calories so it's not a true 16:8 I expect. I have reduced from 3 sugars to 1.5 so hopefully I'll reduce further soon and can incorporate true 16:8 fasting into my 5:2.

today has been ok ate sensibly during the day but have been picking at easter chocolates before dinner as DH seems to be taking forever to put DC to bed.
I am on holiday though until next week so I just have to let go of the feeling of guilt whenever I'm eating a bit more. I have a 6000 calorie deficit from the past week and on maintenance but feel guilty at the thought of 'going over' TDEE.

Does anyone else have this feeling?

SugarPlum I recommend you make an appointment Tuesday with your doctor to have your insulin levels assessed again and also to check with them about your continuing further with IF (Intermittent Fasting).

My suggestion if you are cleared to proceed is that you do 500-600 calorie FDs, with NFDs at 80% of your TDEE, since research suggests a large calorie deficit is beneficial.
Plenty of vegetables daily, but the research below suggests cutting out fruit completely, also white carbs, alcohol, added sugar and any junky food, such as crisps, cake, biscuits, choc etc

There have been exciting studies recently suggesting IF may reverse or avoid Type 2 Diabetes, BUT far more trials are required before it could become a standard therapy.
Also, these IF / 5:2 threads are intended for folk who are in reasonable health, without medical isssues.

These are the relevant peer-reviewed human studies I know of:

1. Ref Type2Paper16:8 Used an 8-hour eating window, in which the Type 2 subjects ate only breakfast and lunch. The study conclusions were:
   eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels

2. Ref Type2PaperDailyVLC from Newcastle Uni reversed Type 2 for several subjects with a Daily 700 Cal Buffered Fast for 8 weeks.
   However, such an extreme diet MUST have medical supervision

Again, please check with your doctor Tuesday about continuing with IF and if allowed to proceed, with which form of IF.

MrsWhiskers Sadly, some folk do feel guilt about food, especially those who have been on daily calorie resrtiction for years.
Eating should be a normal, healthy part of life which brings pleasure, but western society has distorted attitudes towards food & bodies.

You have successfully lost weight and are now on maintenance.
So, give yourself a big pat on the back, relax and enjoy your holiday !

Thanks bigchoc

Thank you for the welcome. Bigchocfrenzy, thank you for all the info. My GP has been faxed by the on call GP with details so when I go Tuesday we can sort bloods. Very typical it all happened over Bank Holiday. On call GP was happy to leave it till Tuesday as I'd had quite a high carb load before testing and have UTI. She said to monitor food and bloods over the weekend regularly and then normal GP Tuesday unless things worsened.

I was reading the Newcastle study and the bit about 1-2 meals this morning which was made me decide that I would like to try IF if possible. I will discuss it with my GP.before doing it properly. Been recording meals and pre/post bloods all day and am relieved to see them falling back to normal levels and hopeful it was due to infection in large part and I won't be getting a T2 diagnosis, though guess I may well be getting a Prediabetes diagnosis.

My apologies, I do appreciate these threads are for healthy people which I'm not at the moment so will come back once cleared by GP. Thanks for the help.

Please don't go anywhere, SugarPlum!

I'm sure BC wasn't intending to put you off these threads.

I, for one, would like to hear how you get on with your GP and subsequently. One of the reasons I continue to IF (over 3 years, now) is the reported effect it has on Type-2 diabetes.

Seeing Mike Mosley, on the Horizon programme on IF, taking his insulin level from almost pre-diabetic to the mid-point of normality after only 5 weeks of 5:2 was very encouraging.

Hope you get well soon!

I do appreciate these threads are for healthy people
Nah
These threads are for people who are interested in ~ starting out at ~ experienced at intermittent fasting in its many forms.
Do hang around and keep reading as there might be ideas that will work for you in short and long term.

In the OP and whenever it comes up, I always advise anyone with medical issues to check with their doctor, so that they hopefully get the all-clear to join us. Mosely and Varady in their books give similarly cautious advice.

I hope we see you next week, SugarPlum but do let us know anyway what your doctor thinks - we don't know if diabetes specialists are currently ok with their patients trying to reverse T2 symptoms with IF, or of course if other issues like your gall bladder make them advise against.

We'd love you to join us for your own sake, naturally, but also it would be really interesting to see if IF corrects your insulin metabolism changes < dons nosey geek hat >

I'll update once I've had my blood resullts back and seen GP. My Friend who is the Diabetes Nurse is the lead nurse in her department and doing a Masters. She needs to shift some weight and said she'll read up on it. Will be interesting to see what she makes of it and how the Consultant she works under views it.

Years ago I used to do research in a hospital so find things like this really interesting.

I only decided during last Thursday morning, that if I wanted to get a fast in this week, I’d better get on with it. (I didn't particularly wish to fast on Good Friday!) I rarely have breakfast these days, so that was a good start.

My initial thoughts were that I’d have a low calorie dinner – something like a

So I bought new scales and it turns out my mums are the ones that are wrong

In spite of that, I've had a massive SV this morning! After a NFD, weighing in at 90kg exactly - 198lbs, finally back under 200 :) I never want to be back over it again!

Thanks so much to everyone for your ongoing support, I cant believe I'm actually doing it this time :)

Happy Easter everyone

Congratulations on all the SVs and NSVs to everyone and bon courage to all newcomers!

Not only is this thread wonderfully friendly, but the advice given here is amazingly effective. When I joined a couple of weeks ago I was bored with a sluggish loss. A few simple adjustments later (staying within TDEE on NFDs, running 0.4 miles to the gym, drinking coffee and green tea before workouts etc.), I lost 2.6 kg since joining, which is speedy for someone already within healthy BMI and with, as BigChoc made me aware, only the stubborn kind of fat left to lose. Pleasingly, my old wardrobe looks and feels less like someone else's and every week I am able to wear more and more of my old pre-pregnancy favourites, despite still carrying an extra stone. I am very grateful to everyone for sharing their experiences and to BigChoc for being so generous with her time and expertise!

The progress made me unclench a little, which I probably needed to do, so I made my third fast of the week yesterday a mini FD at 650 kcal.

Breadandwine, your post made me smile. I am not a drinker, but have had ice-cream on FDs and still stayed within my limits. I really appreciate how flexible this WOE can be.

I wish I had more time for this thread, but RL is very busy with a constant stream of Easter house guests. Needless to say, Easter Sunday is a NFD and I am saving all my calories for a late three-course lunch at home with all the trimmings.

Happy holidays to everyone!

NFD yesterday and with the meal I ended up consuming about 2000cals!! It was worth it!

Happy easter everyone!

b&w You certainly demonstrate the flexibility of this WOL

Congrats on your SV, Squiggle Getting under 200 lb is a great milestone

Now just keep going patiently and you'll continue to lose weight and reach your goal. Post whenever you need support.

Well done on your SV, OneOrg and on the wardrobe NSV.
You have taken the right steps to continue losing within a healthy BMI.
Many other 5:2ers, including oldtimers like talkinpeace, have achieved pre-preg weight or lower, so you can do this too.

Happy Easter Sunday everyone !

Hi everyone, hope you're all having a good weekend. I've not been on here much recently but I have been sticking to the 5:2. I've lost 10 kilos and am at my target weight! I've found this easy to do because I don't feel deprived and if I do have a bit much one day, know that my fast day will sort me out. I need to work on maintaining this, though which is what I do find difficult. Any suggestions?