5:2 Diet Thread! Number 15! Our quinceañera!

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

The continuing thread for those of us following either the 5:2 diet or the alternate-day fasting diet.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012, and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat what you like, or approximately your TDEE (see explanation below). Alternate-day fasting is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

ADF = Alternate-day Fasting, as it says on the tin, fasting every other day rather than 5:2.

Michael Mosley has recently unveiled a new website to accompany his new book on the subject. Please go check them out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

I know a number of people lurk on this thread, as this is currently quite popular. Please just jump in and post if you're new- you'll find a lot of support here.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

First things first, here are links to some of our previous threads: most recent one before that another one!

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the links and tips that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

If you've been at this a while and are moving on to maintaining your goal weight, there is a thread here to discuss that.

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

There's a link to the aforementioned Horizon programme here.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley himself, very informative if you're just starting.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing, btw. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful. Sorry if I haven't given credit where it's due, but it was just enough of a job getting all the links re-copied and back into one post.

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

Hmmmm... I've been on this WOE for around 5 weeks and I'm suffering from my 2nd cold/ chest infection during this time. Do you think it's a coincidence? I usually rarely get sick, and when I do I generally fight it off quickly, but not this time. Perhaps I should take a vitamin supplement on fasting days (and try and eat more fruit and veg on non fast days)

Well I failed, I was starving so Ive eaten some fruit toast (I did give some to DD2 and the dog so it wasn't all eaten by me)

I last ate last night with my dinner (finished eating at half 6) I did have a hot choc last night at 9PM and have lasted until 10AM this morning so Im rubbish. This is going to take time to get into.

Lilleth No, you haven't failed! You have two options:

1. Eat normally today and try again tomorrow

2. Keep going today and have really small meals - even if you have 800 calories you will still have achieved something. You have lasted from 6.30 to 10am which is still a good amount of fasting time and certainly all I managed to achieve during my first couple of fasts.

ninunina I think it's most likely a coincidence but there's no harm in upping your nutritional intake via supplements or veggies.

chocupid I've been bouncing round the same weight for about 3 weeks (I'm also 2 months in). I had a cold for half that time which wiped out my exercise regime but I'm slowly getting back on track and there was a glimmer of hope on the scales this morning. Persevere and think of the health benefits!

Also, not drinking booze really helps...

Thanks Betsy I suppose it takes time for your body to get used to not having breakfast every day. I can't remember the last time I didn't eat anything in the morning.

I am going to keep going. My lunch is 230 calories (I checked earlier) and my dinner is 700 calories, but Im only going to eat half of it so will be 350. The problem I have today is that I decided to look into this on Sat, but I do my weekly shop on a Friday so have meals in for this week. Next week I can get myself something better for my evening meal

OK so it will be over 500 calories, but it will be less than 1000 which is good for me. Perhaps for this week I should try to aim to do the same today and when I go shopping on Friday I can make sure I get some lower calorie food in for next week.

ninunina I've been doing this for 8 months and have not had a cold or any illness at all (lucky me) so I think that it's coincidence. Many people have felt a little 'rough' at the begining of 5:2ing but find that soon their bodies have settled down and then they feel really energised. Keep going

I havn't felt any illness / cold / lack of sleep that others have felt. For the most part fast days are full of energy and I really like them!
The only unpleasant effect I have experienced on two occasions is feeling so ravenously hungry that I actually feel sick and have got as far as the toilet bowl before now! I think for me, I have to have something at around the 20hr mark - a banana or such like. Then I can get through to evening meal but just means I have to stick to nearer 400 cals for that!

Morning fellow fasters
Had a shocker of a weigh in this morning - 5lbs up on yesterday Didn't have a particularly 'large' w/e & did a Jillian yesterday too
Good job I'm fasting today. Had hoped tomorrow would show another new low
Welcome newbies & good luck.

Fast day today. Gained 1lb after the weekend, too much chocolate Fast days are normally ok for me, especially this early in the day, but today I have to order cupcakes/cake for my son's 4th birthday on Thursday ... just spent the last half hour googling and drooling, not good not good!

giraffemum, InNeedOfAName, don?t give up! 5:2 is simple, really really simple, so simple I sometimes want to pinch myself at how easy it is and it?s still working! It?s understandable for you to get a bit confused because on these threads we love talking around all forms of intermittent fasting and sharing our tips on how we do it. As there are no scientific studies conclusively proving one way of intermittent fasting is better than others we avoid as much as possible telling people they?re doing it wrong as their method may in fact be valid and work for them.

Please do have a look at frenchfancy?s post below. She kindly reposted one of my posts in which I try to show newcomers to the threads just how simple this WoE is. Some others did find this helpful.

postmanpatscat, don?t worry about the scales going up. The scales can?t tell you the difference between fat and water. I highly doubt you?d?ve gained fat after a good fast day, but it?s possible to have weird results on the scales due to water. I sometimes weigh in heavier after a fast day and lighter after a blow-out scoff fest. I?ve decided not to worry about it and prefer to look at the trend over the previous 4 weeks instead. That?s more telling than what the scales say after just one day IMO.

LillethTheCat, do you have a corner shop you can go to and grab a few tins of chunk soups? I?ve been having to adjust the way I do my fasting since I got back to the UK. I?m finding skipping breakfast, having a tin of chunky soup (usually around 200 kcal per tin) for lunch and then something like a couple of fish fingers and a big plate of veg for dinner sees me right on a fast day. Don?t worry if you?re over the 500 today. 800 is still a good go at a fast day.

What do we mean by ?fasting??

When we use the word ?fast? on these threads it can mean two different things depending on the context:

1. modified fasting, where you can have 5/600 calories during your fasting day. In other words you fast all day, but your fast is modified by the fact that you are allowed to eat 5/600 calories during your fast day. This is what we usually mean when we say things like ?I fasted on Tuesday?.

2. zero calorie fasting, where you take in no calories at all, only zero calorie drinks (some of us even modify that by allowing a teeny splish of milk in our tea or drinking very low kcal drinks like weak barley water [shhh!] others are stricter and have no kcals at all). This we sometimes do for the health benefits of fasting and is not compulsory. This is what we usually mean when we say things like ?I managed to fast for 22 hours today?. Someone who says they managed to fast for 22 hours usually means they had zero calories for 22 hours since they last ate and then after the 22 hours they used some of their 5/600 calories to eat something.

Can I fast for a 24 hour period say from 1pm to 1pm and just stick to my 5/600 kcal allowance in that time?

I?ve been giving this one a lot of thought. I?ve always thought that if you choose to do a 24 hour fasting period then this is meant to be a zero calorie fast for 24 hours with normal eating either side. This is another form of intermittent fasting.

Personally I?d say that if you choose to do 5:2 then, as others have said, it is helpful to think of a ?day? as a calendar day, not as a 24 hour period. If you need to think of it as a 24 hour period to get your head around it then think of it as midnight to midnight. (You don?t get to choose what time e.g. Tuesday starts, by the same token, you don?t get to choose what time a fast day starts only which days you are going to fast on IYSWIM). Like I said though, this is if you want to do 5:2 and keep it simple. There are other forms of intermittent fasting which are perfectly valid and can work.

Here?s an illustration (not intended to tell anyone what they should be doing, just an illustration) of why it might not be helpful to think of a ?fast day? as a 24 hour period which spreads over two calendar days:

Lady with a TDEE of 1750 kcal per day does 5:2 the simple calendar day way:
Monday fast day eats 500 kcal
Tuesday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Wednesday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Thursday fast day eats 500 kcal
Friday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Saturday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Sunday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Total calories consumed: 9750 kcal
Total calorie deficit for the week: 2500 kcal

Lady achieves this by having on normal days: 400 kcal breakfast, 500 kcal lunch, 600 kcal dinner and 250 kcal for drinks and treats; and on fast days by either having a 16 hour fast until lunch and then having 200 kcal for lunch and 300 kcal for dinner or by having a 24 hour fast and having a 500 kcal dinner.

Lady?s friend, who also has a 1750 kcal TDEE decides to give it a go, but decides to do a 24 hour fast from 1pm to 1pm:
Monday until 1pm 400 kcal breakfast plus 500 kcal lunch plus 100 kcal drinks total: 1000 kcal
Monday 1pm to Tuesday 1pm 24 hour modified fast 300 kcal dinner plus 200 kcal breakfast total: 500 kcal
Tuesday after 1pm lunch 500 kcal plus dinner 600kcal plus drinks and treats 150 kcal total: 1250 kcal
Wednesday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Thursday until 1pm 400 kcal breakfast plus 500 kcal lunch plus 100 kcal drinks total: 1000 kcal
Thursday 1pm to Friday 1pm 24 hour modified fast 300 kcal dinner plus 200 kcal breakfast total: 500 kcal
Friday after 1pm lunch 500 kcal plus dinner 600kcal plus drinks and treats 150 kcal total: 1250 kcal
Saturday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Sunday normal day eats 1750 kcal
Total calories consumed: 10750 kcal
Total calorie deficit for the week: 1500 kcal
(This also assumes that Lady?s friend is not tempted to eat a bigger lunch on the two days either side of her fast and is also not tempted to have more calories in treats either side of the fast)

Each week Lady gets in two 16+ hour periods of zero calorie fasting and reaps the health benefits and has a calorie deficit of 2500 kcal per week which sees her slowly but surely losing some weight.

Lady?s friend doesn?t get in any periods of zero calorie fasting except what every human being gets overnight while asleep and her calorie deficit is only 1500 kcal per week so she may not be getting the health benefits and she begins to get frustrated because it seems like she?s not losing weight very quickly.

I?ve been thinking about how the 24 hour modified fast could still work. If Lady?s friend did, say, 3pm to 3pm instead and so skipped lunch on Tuesday and Friday she could increase her calorie deficit to 2500 kcal, which is the same as Lady?s. If she also had her 200 kcal meal on Tuesday and Friday closer to lunch time instead of at breakfast then she could also get in two 16+ hour zero calorie fasts per week for the health benefits that come along with that.

So I think it is possible to do it.

The downsides though are: a) it?s more complicated that going from sleep to sleep and b) the fasting affects 4 calendar days per week to get in just two fasts whereas a sleep to sleep approach only affects 2 calendar days per week. It also may be true that for anyone who doesn?t want to calorie count at all outside of their modified fasts this approach may not work as these people (me included) may be inclined to eat too much on the morning and afternoon either side of the fasting period for it to work.

But I?m not by any means an expert and I?m just typing out my musings on this so if it works for you, please let us know!

?and if everything I?ve typed above seems way to complicated then ignore it completely and stick to this simple principle:

  <span class="italic">On a fast day eat no more than 500 kcal (600 for men) from waking up until going to sleep.  On a non-fast day eat normally.</span>

That?s it, it really is that simple.

Hi all,

Fast day here for me too!! Had a rather indulgent weekend as instructed by you lovely ladies and kept away from the scales.

I've noticed my work trousers this morning definitely seemed a little loose! And someone complimented me at the weekend saying had I lost a bit of weight! Which was nice.....although the numbers aren't that convincing maybe its showing else where?

Last time I ate was about 8:30pm last night and I plan on holding off until little one goes to bed tonight at 7pm.

Feeling good and although I recognise the hunger pangs, I give it 5minutes and they've gone. It really is mind over matter. I feel myself 'reprogramming' with every fast.

Good luck everyone!!

A few people have mentioned you should fast on two non consecutive days. Is there a reason for this? I sometimes do two days together, and was going to this week as well. Would it be better not to and rearrange my days?

Itsaboatjack if two consecutive days is working for you carry on. I think non-consecutive days are recommended to ensure 'happy compliance'. I think the idea is that if you only have one day at a time then when you get tempted you can say 'I can have it tomorrow', but if tomorrow is also a fast day it's a little bit harder to resist. But if you don't have problems with sticking to your fast days doing them back to back then keep on doing what works!

I second catsrus's posts: keep it simple. Don't overthink things if you can avoid it. Just wake up one day, eat 500 calories somehow over the course of the day (all at once, split between meals, whatever). Go to bed. The next day, do what you like.

Itsaboat do your fasts however you'd like. Think in terms of your average calories over a week. I personally wouldn't fast two consecutive days, but one of the researchers did and it didn't affect him adversely. Same with MM- his only recommendation regarding it that I have seen basically said he preferred not to.

As for questions re: 24 hour fasts (from 2pm to 2pm or whatever), I think if you struggle with food management (have a tendency to overeat), then you might find yourself eating more to compensate. Oh I have to start fasting at 2pm so I'll have xyz more than I'd normally have at lunch. Or oh, whew, I've passed 2pm I can eat that cheesecake now. I'm just not sure I'd personally be able to avoid overcompensating like that. You'd essentially be able to eat quite a lot of calories every calendar day.

But I know some people are able to do this with decent results, so if it appeals to you, give it a try. :) It's all experimental until you find what works for you, personally.

NurseEzzza Very helpful posts thank you. I have often wondered about 2pm to 2pm .I think for me it would feel much more like being on a diet but it could be the way for others. I like the midnight to midnight idea especially as I am working tonight so will start my eating day on Tuesday at 1am!

Fasting today and feeling hungrier than I have ever felt before. I wonder if I didn't eat enough yesterday?  Still only got to make it til 4pm which will be 20 hours then I will have a bit to eat before I get some sleep in. 

Hope Monday fasts are going well

Thank you everyone, particularly you Ezza. I think I had got to the point where as I'd stopped losing weight I stared questioning technique. I've never yet broken the fast or home over 500kcals so not doing too badly really. I guess I will be happier when I start to lose the 2nd stone (the first went so quickly I think my expectations got rather ahead of my body!)

Anyway, fasting today and wearing pedometer to check activity (6700 steps so far...) going to run 5k before supper. All great but potential hazard in sight... DD came home from childminder clutching homemade biscuits...eek!

Hi, today is my first day trying this WOE. I'm fasting today and trying to read this thread and get to grips with it all! Can I just ask if I am on the right track please? So I ate at 7 last night, had to have a cup of tea at 7am this morning or I'd never manage walking nearly 2 mile round trip to do school run! Was this ok? At 10, after chasing my toddler around and housework, I felt awful so had half an apple and 3 small rice cakes. Cup of hot water and then cup of black coffee. I have made a veg soup for lunch and dinner. With tea/coffee taken into account I am aiming for 500 calories today. So basically have I interpreted this WOE correctly? Thanks

Typo alert

Gone not home, obviously!

Hi All,

Fifth fast today - all going well so far! My second weigh in last week was EXACTLY the same as the previous week so still -6.5 pounds over all but no additional weight loss for the second week - I have been rather piggy on non-fast days though :(

Its funny but I don't really mind that my weight stayed the same- I feel if I can maintain that weight whilst eating McDonalds and Pizzas then when I'm feeling a bit more disciplined the weight should continue to come off. Hope to do better this week!

The best health benefits come from the longer fasts : ie nothing solid or highly calorific for your bowels to have to deal with (therefore teas, coffee, water and miso are excepted)

But building up to the first few 24 hour fasts can be daunting.

So its easiest to start from the end of supper the night before - say 7pm.
Do not snack in the evening
Sleep
Just have a drink at breakfast
that's 12 hours done
Lunch, if you can just have lashings of tea, if not something small and healthy and you've made it to 16 hours
if you managed without lunch have more to drink and sort supper as something filling and warm (I'm a big soup fan, others do veggie stews or stir fries or fish)
and you have just done a 24 hour fast
now try not to snack in the evening and last through till breakfast the next day
you have just done 36 hours on 500 calories

IndianaMoans you sound like you are doing fine . As everyone says it gets easier as you go on.

Thanks, one of the reasons I started doing two together was so I could fit in a 24hr true fast period. So for instance yesterday I had my last food (hot choc) at about 10pm, so I'll go today until 5pm before dinner so 19 hrs, then tomorrow I'll fast again and have my 500 cals after 5pm so will have done 24hrs. I want to be able to have something to eat or drink in the evening before a fast day if I want it, otherwise if I stop at say 6 or 7 the day before then it's like the fast day is affecting two days anyway. If that makes sense.